Question about military trained divers

[jsbromley]

So typical, Bromley !!!
Didn't you just love it when all the instructors/Tac Officers started hovering around you?

I'll never forget it! I was trying to stare straight ahead, so I wouldn't think about it, but everywhere I looked there was a pair of fins.

Obviously, the sharks smelled blood in the water.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Silt avoidance has more to do with buoyancy control, then finning technique, and I think I have adequately answered that. However, one more reason to avoid stirring up the bottom would be to prevent enemy detection. Although most ports are so murky you would lucky if you could see your hand in front of your face

Thanks Jeff. Your post was very informative.

I disagree here a little though. If you are very close at all to a silty bottom finning technique will make a big difference. A full flutter kick or any kick that propells water down will cause sitling and that's what the IANTD evaluation form is refering to but all else being in good order it's not something that takes long to learn.

If the diver were going to go to 30 feet we would not be using a rebreather at 100% O2. For deeper dives a SEAL would use either a MK15 or MK16, which is a mixed gas rebreather.

I didn't know how deep they used pure O2. I thought I read somewhere it was 2 ATA but you know better than me. We of course cut it off at 1.6 and only use that for decompression.

They wouldn’t have been graduates.

I'll take your word for it.

Because you’re basing your conclusions on a small and misrepresentative picture of what is included or not included in our training. In addition, due to the fact that you have never personally experienced it, or even seen it in its entirety there is no way that you can be objective.

The only conclusion I have made was limited to what I saw. I thought I clearly defined the scope of my comment in like my very first sentance. I, of course, realize that what I saw was a small picture since the show only lasts like an hour. You're stateement as some one who's been through the training that it's misrepresentative is also helpful. Easy enough to believe since even the new reports often are.

I'm not sure why the Navy would allow the filming of the training or what their goal was. I don't know what impression they want people who see it to come away with. I can tell you that there were two other cave divers and a new OW diver present for the viewing. Being divers, we looked at the diving and you already know what we saw and thought. The film makers obviously wanted to impress us with the phisical abuse and difficulty of the training. Since the show centered on dive training they might want to think about showing some of it to give a more accurate representation. Maybe the Navy doesn't't care and maybe they just shouldn't let the camera crew in.

I'm also a farrier. I've had horses knock me through oak plank walls, rip holes in my flesh with their teeth and send me flying with a good solid kick to the chest. However, if I was going to produce, or allow, the production of a tv show using me that was meant to show the public something about the trade, I would show something other than me flying through solid walls because it just doesn't provide any information other than horses sometimes abuse farriers. LOL

Mike, if you have anymore questions that I can answer or have not answered, then send me a PM, and I will give you my phone number.

Jeff

Again, thanks for the informative post. Based on what you wrote I don't know why all the agencies don't recognize military dive credentials. I would think that would be something they'd straighten out for you guys without making you pay for a card from a rec agency.

I don't need an OW card if I have my cave card on me. Why would you need an OW card?

 

[sweatfrog]

At this point I would say it depends on what you are comparing it to: If you are comparing my training as a BUD/S student and a Navy SEAL, to PADI’s and NAUI’s, basic open water training then there is no comparison. What I learned in the military would be far more complete and extremely safer. I base this on the fact that not only was I a Navy SEAL, but am currently a working PADI Dive Master. In addition, I would like to say that I have barely scratched the surface of all the dive training that I received while in the military.
Jeff

This information Jeff gave you is the best that is available Mike. You take that with an experienced diver or open water course and those people will be super pleased. Give them a card without assessing their skill level and you're breaking any Standards I have ever read. The liability is on you.

I was in Class 46 Jeff and a Captain from my class got the entire itinerary for Class 246. Then a bunch of us went out to Coronado for the graduation. One guy came up from Chili and he had all these pics of us in training, that we'd forgotten about. It was great fun, seeing some of those guys after 35 years.

Oh my word, I just doubled my posts in this thread alone. You already know I'm old and crochety.

 

[jsbromley]

Again, thanks for the informative post. Based on what you wrote I don't know why all the agencies don't recognize military dive credentials. I would think that would be something they'd straighten out for you guys without making you pay for a card from a rec agency.

Thanks!

I guess it would be nice if there was some type of equivalency test we could take.
I was actually a PADI, Open Water Diver, before I joined the Navy so getting tanks filled wouldn't have been a problem for me.

Considering all the liability involved for a dive shop, especially in the last several years. I would think it would probably be really hard to get a tank filled if all you had was your military training and didn't carry a c-card.

 

[jsbromley]

This information Jeff gave you is the best that is available Mike. You take that with an experienced diver or open water course and those people will be super pleased. Give them a card without assessing their skill level and you're breaking any Standards I have ever read. The liability is on you.

I was in Class 46 Jeff and a Captain from my class got the entire itinerary for Class 246. Then a bunch of us went out to Coronado for the graduation. One guy came up from Chili and he had all these pics of us in training, that we'd forgotten about. It was great fun, seeing some of those guys after 35 years.

Oh my word, I just doubled my posts in this thread alone. You already know I'm old and crochety.

I hope I am not being rude, but what year did class 46 graduate in? I graduated from class 160, and that was in 89.

One of the guys I graduated with is the senior enlisted for 2nd Phase, which is now the diving phase. When I went through diving phase was actually 3rd phase. But anyways, I guess right now class 256 is getting ready to graduate. I am looking forward to my first centennial visit. I would really love to take my two sons, and go have some fun on the o-course one last time.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You already know I'm old and crochety.

 

[sweatfrog]

Are these people who haven't dives in decades? Decades ago (depending on how many I guess) no one was using a BC so I would think that this diver would need some training to meet current standards.

My thoughts exactly.

I'm an IANTD member however I droped my insurance a few months ago and haven't renewed yet for this year. I'm still mulling that one over.

Mull away, I just became an IANTD Technical and Trimix Instructor.

You could call it diatribe if you want but I simply explained what I saw, where I saw it and what I thought of it.

Actually, the way you explain things has a tendency to piss people off from time to time. In case you haven't noticed, I am also very blunt.

I do have some strong opinions about dive training. Aside from seeing too many accidents it seems every dive site with many divers using it is a mess and it's no fun. Is is a complex to prefer dive sites that aren't destroyed by divers and to dislike seeing them hauled off in ambulances? Maybe so.

I am also very particular about dive training. Ecology is everyones responsibility and everyone needs to lend a hand. Here we go again with the accident thing. Show me where the statistics are, that show an increase in accidents. Maybe not, you don't know me so don't make assumptions. It's a tragedy anytime someone is hurt, injured or killed, no matter what they're doing.

Or maybe you think I have a complex because I don't agree with you

Opinions are like A-holes, everyones got one. I just haven't articulated mine on this board. You seem to jump in with both feet and now that I've seen how you use the shotgun technique, I understand why people lurk on certain threads, instead of putting their opinion forth.

 

[sweatfrog]

I hope I am not being rude, but what year did class 46 graduate in? I graduated from class 160, and that was in 89.

One of the guys I graduated with is the senior enlisted for 2nd Phase, which is now the diving phase. When I went through diving phase was actually 3rd phase. But anyways, I guess right now class 256 is getting ready to graduate. I am looking forward to my first centennial visit. I would really love to take my two sons, and go have some fun on the o-course one last time.

Not at all Jeff, I graduated in 68'. You might remember the Command Master Chief at the time you were at BUD'S. The two of us were in Alaska in April. I'll be out there for the reunion this August. The Captain I was talking about is retiring.

 

[captain]

Thanks to all you SEALs and former SEAls for contributing to this post. When I was in the Navy back in the late 60's I really wanted to join the SEALs but my bad eyesight was a disqualifier. Now I see that the Navy will pay for the lasic operation to correct vision. Too late for me.

Captain

 

[Gary D.]

The bulk of the information on this thread has pointed towards the poor diving habits of the SEALS with little mention towards the rest of military diving. ALL military dive training is tough. The SEALS training is just a lot tougher and combat oriented.

No mention has been made towards “when” the diver was trained or “what” the status of our nation was at the time, which happen to influence training. If the military needed to add or replace a large amount of divers school lightened up and more graduated. If they didn’t need many fewer made it.

Another consideration is if the diver went to a Nav-Ships or a Fleet school. Nav-Ships was the true authorized Military schools. You know the one that wrote the Navy Diving Manual. Fleet schools were shorter, mostly SCUBA, and kind of a renegade school at bases around the world. Most Fleet School diver have nothing in their DD-214 or have a dive card of any type. Not all that many years ago, but before Panama City, EVERYONE went to the Nav-Ships Navy Dive School. Only Navy went to the Fleet Schools.

Attitude has a big part to do with getting through school. It might even be the biggest factor.

Everyone, except the Navy could go to dive school right out of boot camp. The Navy had to have two years under your belt prior to going. Granted there were exceptions but this was the norm.

Normally, and I stress NORMALLY, first to pack their bags and go home was the Marines. The highest percentage of graduates was the Navy then Army. Coasties and Air Force followed.

Marines came to school with that chest beating tough guy attitude and that is normally what washed them out within the first few days. They didn’t play well with others. But they seemed to get cocky with the “NAVY” instructors, which wasn’t a good thing.

We didn’t have BC’s. So before someone goes off about how unsafe that was and what idiots we were for not using them, you need to realize they hadn’t been invented yet. Kind of hard to fly across the country before the plane was invented.

Now take into account we had very little body fat and most of us sank like a rock, you kicked a bunch. Some of us smaller guys could wear ¼” Farmer John suits with 5 or 10 pounds and be neutral.

Free diving was relaxing for us. It was one of the few things we could do and not be glued to your buddy. 120’ free dives were easy and at times we would go down, find an air supply, take a hit of air and stay down a while. If we wanted to we could have stayed down, maxing the tables and not take any air to do it.

We were taught to take care of ourselves in the water weather it is on the surface or below. We were taught to dive with a buddy but not totally rely on him. We were taught many of the things civilian divers are taught but at a much more intense and extreme rate.

We were trained to remove detonators from mines and recover torpedoes in open-ocean. If our Buoyancy control was so bad why did we survive these operations? Try putting the cap on a milk jug that is floating on the surface without touching the jug itself. Not an easy task with a BC on let alone without one.

We were trained in buoyancy control, the Buddy system, basic SCUBA skills and almost every specialty course there is offered. In fact we spent more time on each of these skills than most divers spend on getting the entire OW certification.

I have noticed that most of the discussions involving military divers, I am not picking on anyone here, know very little about it. The contacts they have had with various military divers, be it a SEAL, Salvage/Repair, Research, S&R or others have been with either a good one or a poor one.

Whatever the case, just like the civilian world, some military divers will impress you while others will repulse you. Don’t judge the entire group on a few positive or negative contacts.

Personally, If I were to get into trouble in the water and I had my choice between the civilian diver with a Master Card or military diver with the most basic training to save my life, my first choice would have to be the military diver

Gary D..