Question about military trained divers

[rmediver2002]

Thanks. I would like to hear what their take is on this. I am wondering what the liability issues would be. :06:

Most of the dive shops in this area will sell air to a diver with a miltary certification (although during training most students do not have this yet) so if they want to dive on the weekend they just get a civilian card.

In other areas of the country it really depends on who you speak with at the store. Most of the time at working units individuals fill personal cylinders at work (if allowed)

 

[sweatfrog]

My advice to anyone wanting to assess a divers skill level before begining training is to get in the water with them and make an assessment. I have seen people that were very comfortable in the water picking up skills very quickly with a bisc open water card and I have also seen soup sandwiches that carried three dozen different levels of cards with them...

That is good advice.

Anyway, I don't mind talking with others that are blunt or even a little gruff so there's no hard feelings on this end anyway.

I can't believe you became magnanimous first. Way to go Mike. I guess my lurking days have ended.

 

[AggieDad]

I would rather dive with a military trained diver just as I would rather fly with a military trained pilot. Some on this board sound like they are a legend in their own mind when it comes to their skills and knowledge.

Captain

I understand your sentiments but as a professional pilot for over thirty years, I have flown with both civilian and military trained and am qualified to 'judge' between the two 'schools'. I just spent the last couple of hours talking with a former Blue Angel that was the longest serving Angel on record. Ace Pilot, extremely competent and professional and very little of what he did then applies to our job now with one extremely glaring exception......and military vs. civilian training doesn't matter in the air or under the water..........JUDGEMENT!
All of the basics of aviation and diving 'laws' are the same. The time spent on the sometimes insignificant details is different. As a newbie diver but a very experienced pilot I can attest to the difference in training attitudes over the years. Why does one need to know the torque of the wheel bolt or the air pressure of an accumulator? That is the old philosophy, the new is the light comes on, get out the checklist and do the procedure. Why? Because with the integration of systems and computers the random 'test' pilot will or can cause many more problems. The same in diving. The training a 'SEAL' goes through is mission specific and has little bearing to recreational diving.
Which is a better pilot or diver? Military or civilian. Does judgement only come from experience? It doesn't matter to me as long as I arrive alive.

 

[captain]

You are professonal aviator and have the training to do that. You would not be required and maybe unable to afford that level of training if all you intented flying was a Cessna as a private pilot. Working up to a transport rating is not something that can be done in a few weeks just as becoming a Seal does not happen in a few weeks. In both cases along the way you aquire more knowledge and experience. I still would rather fly with a military pilot just out of flight training than a private pilot just out of training just as would rather dive with a recent graduate of a military dive school than a recent graduate of a recreational dive course. At some point in the furture graduates of both systems may be equally capable but in my opinion the military trained person starts out better prepared.

Captain

 

[rmediver2002]

I understand your sentiments but as a professional pilot for over thirty years, I have flown with both civilian and military trained and am qualified to 'judge' between the two 'schools'. I just spent the last couple of hours talking with a former Blue Angel that was the longest serving Angel on record. Ace Pilot, extremely competent and professional and very little of what he did then applies to our job now with one extremely glaring exception......and military vs. civilian training doesn't matter in the air or under the water..........JUDGEMENT!
All of the basics of aviation and diving 'laws' are the same. The time spent on the sometimes insignificant details is different. As a newbie diver but a very experienced pilot I can attest to the difference in training attitudes over the years. Why does one need to know the torque of the wheel bolt or the air pressure of an accumulator? That is the old philosophy, the new is the light comes on, get out the checklist and do the procedure. Why? Because with the integration of systems and computers the random 'test' pilot will or can cause many more problems. The same in diving. The training a 'SEAL' goes through is mission specific and has little bearing to recreational diving.
Which is a better pilot or diver? Military or civilian. Does judgement only come from experience? It doesn't matter to me as long as I arrive alive.

The missions are different, and I do not believe the original question was asking about who was better, just what portions of the training were applicable.

I see your point but your statement about being able to judge because you have flown with or talked to military trained pilots is the same as someone forming an opinion about military dive training based on the fact that they dove with or talked to some military divers.

I do not know if you have been through SEAL training or not, I have not so I do not know if the training is all mission specific and whether or not it has bearing for recreational diving. (of course having dove with and talked to SEAL divers over the years I have formed my own opinions of the training and it differs from yours)

I guess my only point here is unless you have personally attended both types of training your really not in a position to pass judgment on the applicability of one to the other.

We see the same thing on a larger scale when people base opinions of one agencies training over another based on experience diving with one or even many of the agencies students.

Respecfully,

Jeff

 

[AggieDad]

You are professonal aviator and have the training to do that. You would not be required and maybe unable to afford that level of training if all you intented flying was a Cessna as a private pilot. Working up to a transport rating is not something that can be done in a few weeks just as becoming a Seal does not happen in a few weeks. In both cases along the way you aquire more knowledge and experience. I still would rather fly with a military pilot just out of flight training than a private pilot just out of training just as would rather dive with a recent graduate of a military dive school than a recent graduate of a recreational dive course. At some point in the furture graduates of both systems may be equally capable but in my opinion the military trained person starts out better prepared.

Captain

Flying is my skill, communication is not. You are correct that when a military pilot gets his/her wings then they are better prepared at that time and simply due to the fact of like you said....time spent in training. It still all boils down to judgement and the desire to continue learning. I can see that diving is exactly like flying in that no dive or flight is ever the same. I learned the basics at both and then went out and started learning how to really do it.
Please forgive me if the original post didn't come across as I intended.

 

[AggieDad]

The missions are different, and I do not believe the original question was asking about who was better, just what portions of the training were applicable.

I see your point but your statement about being able to judge because you have flown with or talked to military trained pilots is the same as someone forming an opinion about military dive training based on the fact that they dove with or talked to some military divers.

I do not know if you have been through SEAL training or not, I have not so I do not know if the training is all mission specific and whether or not it has bearing for recreational diving. (of course having dove with and talked to SEAL divers over the years I have formed my own opinions of the training and it differs from yours)

I guess my only point here is unless you have personally attended both types of training your really not in a position to pass judgment on the applicability of one to the other.

We see the same thing on a larger scale when people base opinions of one agencies training over another based on experience diving with one or even many of the agencies students.

Respecfully,

Jeff

Jeff,
I can see your point but having actually worked with pilot's of both backgrounds I can see the results of their different training. I still contend that is boils down to the individual person and their judgement. Mechanical skills differ and the missions are totally different. I plan a descent but I don't know how to plan a bombing run. One doesn't apply to the present mission. However the basic skills do not differ. Push on the stick and you go down, pull back and you go up. I would suspect that SEAL training at the very first stages is not all that different of getting familiar and comfortable with the equipment and basic saftey procedures and skills. After that and I am sure that it is very time compressed then it goes into a whole different area of skills and needs.
I just went to a new airplane last year and the total amount of time was two months to learn the systems, the emergencies, the computers and how to actually fly the thing. In the military the same training would have been around a year. Is one better than the other? Again totally different missions.
It all boils down to a good pilot is a good pilot and a good diver is a good diver no matter their background.
I was certified by a PDIC instructor and I asked the question as to which was the 'better' way and was told that it boiled down to the instructor.

Respectfully to you also.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As Jeff points out the original question was concerning cert credit which "should" be based on whether or not being trained in one area covers all the requirements of the other. I say should because things aren't always done in a way that makes sense. As I see it there are 2 parts of this. The first is just a camparison of training standards and the second is the assessment of current skills. Obviously when issueing a certification today, I'm concerned with the knowledge and skill of the student today.

With some agencies you go by the book and have no other choice so if the agency doesn't have provisions for a cross over then there won't be one. Some agencies give the instructor a little more latitude to credit a student for previous training, experience or skill. With IANTD, for instance...if a former or current military diver came to me and I assessed his skill and knowledge to be at whatever level, rather than making him go through an OW class, just because I don't see the question specifically addressed in the printed standards, I'd call the office or shoot an email to Tom to see what he had to say.


Just as a point of reference it's often not that easy for instructors to cross over from one recreational agency to the other either. They YMCA, for instance wants you to start with their rescue (slam?). They don't care if you're full cave, advanced trimix and have been to 300 ft depth in a cave and teaching for 20 years. When, as a PADI instructor, I crossed over to IANTD the IT beat the hell out of me. LOL

 

[GDI]

I had the luxury of serving in a unit with military divers. Although I was not a military diver myself I had many opportunities to get into the water with some of the military divers and observed some of their training. The two schools of thought are different. Military divers are tasked oriented, they have a man pool of people to which they can use to complete those tasks. The very basic components of their training are no different than that of a civilian diver as far as scuba skills, there are no secrect basic scuba skills. Once past the basics is where the training similarities ends. If you can understand it from a military perspective they first teach you to dive and then they teach you to be a military diver. The military divers were taught only those things that were applicable to them in their mission requirements. They would rehearse them until they became second nature. If the mission changed they would adjust the training. There is a very big difference from a Combat Diver or Navy Seal to that of a Navy Hardhat salvage recovery diver and to that of a Police diver.
On the occassions that the military divers and I would go out for a recreational dive I found most of them to be very competent divers having similar scuba skills as any open water diver. Their knowledge/theory of diving physics was different in that it was much higher than most rec divers of comparable diving experience (logged and type of dives). You could see which of the divers mostly made only military dives and those whom also routinely made rec dives. There was also a difference in the theory knowledge base of a Hard hat diver to that of a Combat Diver, again mission specifics. Having had the opportunity to observe, dive with and support many military divers in training and in operations I can tell you that there is a distinct difference in the training methology but most military divers should be able to cross over to a civilian c-card. As I said earlier usually they pay for the rec civilian c-card when they are at the diving school as most military instructors hold civilian instructor certs. In Victoria many of the LDS have military instructors teaching their basic scuba classes.

 

[sweatfrog]

As Jeff points out the original question was concerning cert credit which "should" be based on whether or not being trained in one area covers all the requirements of the other. I say should because things aren't always done in a way that makes sense. As I see it there are 2 parts of this. The first is just a camparison of training standards and the second is the assessment of current skills. Obviously when issueing a certification today, I'm concerned with the knowledge and skill of the student today.

When I was in the military, I dealt with a number of different instructors. They had a curriculum to go by and lesson plans for each phase of training. This isn’t just BUD’S training, I also went through 2nd Class Divers School. The objectives for each portion were laid out and the Instructor told us what was required to pass, before we ever started the evolution. There were good Instructors and poor ones, so you just did the best you could with what you had at hand. Instructor choices were and are out of the question. Gee, that’s kind of like College.

Some of us started commercial diving after we got out. A lot of guys went through a commercial diving school while in the military. I just went straight to New Orleans and found a job. Those guys came to work in New Orleans a few months later, so we were all in the same arena again. I also met commercial divers who couldn’t swim, because you are basically an underwater mechanic and sometimes being in the right place at the right time has its advantages.

With some agencies you go by the book and have no other choice so if the agency doesn't have provisions for a cross over then there won't be one. Some agencies give the instructor a little more latitude to credit a student for previous training, experience or skill. With IANTD, for instance...if a former or current military diver came to me and I assessed his skill and knowledge to be at whatever level, rather than making him go through an OW class, just because I don't see the question specifically addressed in the printed standards, I'd call the office or shoot an email to Tom to see what he had to say.

I’ve been a PADI Course Director for 20 years and while the Instructor is important, so is the Dive Store. People have agendas and timeframes to get certified by today. If an Instructor gets sick or injured then another Instructor can step in to take his place, as long as there is a backup plan to help and a curriculum is set so skills can easily be assessed. At a store this is usually much easier.

I want to make sure people understand the physics of diving, because this is science in practice. Physiology and Dive Tables are of primary concern, so students understand what happens to their body underwater and more than just a cursory overview of how to handle the depth and time factors. Computers and table knowledge are just backups to your brain. Equipment concerns can be addressed much easier through a store, since access to new stuff is more prevalent. Currents, tides and other geographical concerns also need to be addressed. Those will change, depending upon where you live and dive.

I guess I could start my own agency and make it so hard that I’d get very few people to become Instructors. My point is the more people who are certified, the more equipment that is sold and the better the equipment gets. The manufacturers are able to research and improve equipment, so they continue to give rise to the forefront of technology. Without the Dive Store, diving would be in a state of flux. In case you haven’t noticed, this is a very equipment intensive sport.

Just as a point of reference it's often not that easy for instructors to cross over from one recreational agency to the other either. They YMCA, for instance wants you to start with their rescue (slam?). They don't care if you're full cave, advanced trimix and have been to 300 ft depth in a cave and teaching for 20 years. When, as a PADI instructor, I crossed over to IANTD the IT beat the hell out of me. LOL

Contrary to what some people on this board might think, I’m not married to PADI. As I said on this thread, I just became an IANTD Trimix Instructor. This is within PADI Standards. I have seen how Instructors from other agencies teach and while there are good and bad one’s in all walks of life, I don’t like having a course shortcut because I supposedly know the material. You don’t know what you don’t know! That didn’t happen with IANTD, nor when I teach a PADI course. I teach classes so people can gain the most knowledge, skill and most importantly fun from it. Getting a card, although a customer’s primary purpose for coming to my store has to be the carrot, the training to accomplish that goal needs to be adhered to at all times.

When I took a SLAM Course years ago, I asked one of the Y Instructors a question in regards to how to accomplish something. Before I asked that question, I already knew the answer, but his lecture was misleading people. His response had the IT at the course jumping in to revise the answer, before he had egg all over his face. I was already a Public Safety Scuba Instructor. The IT’s were very conscious of how things should be handled. The interesting part was going to a cow pond for the open water and getting my boot sucked off in 3 feet of muck. Yes, I found it.