PSI regulations pertaining to dip tube and vip

[Ann Marie]

Charlie, I believe they recommend that because of results found in a study from the University of Rhode Island on the corrosion of steel and aluminum scuba tanks. If you are interested in the report you may be able to find it by searching for "University of Rhode Island Marine Technical Report 62".

In short, they found that in just over three months, steel cylinders containing salt water (in the study they put in one pint) in a warm environment were in real danger of exploding due to corrosion. There's more but that wraps it up in one sentence.

 

[fweber]

I have seen many valves that didn't have a dip tube inside as a PSI inspector. I am wondering if they know exactly what is for. As long as their fill is clean enough, technically it isn't necessary to have... Am I right?

Given no other option I might knowingly dive a tank that didn't have a dip tube. But, I won't send a tank out the door without one and consider it "fit for service". Hopefully, the dip tube never gets used, just like my auto and health insurances. However, it's their to fill a role of ensuring that nothing enters the valve, preventing it from properly closing, enters the first stage causing a HP run away and potentially burst lp hose or worse, etc. They are cheap insurance and don't negatively impact anything by their presence. Because new valves usually come without the vent tube attached and because the tubes don't have any form of flats to put a wrench on, I suspect that many are never properly tighten to begin with. All that is required is a form of high grip pliers or vise grips and a small patch of rubber that I keep in a draw so as not to mar the chromed finish. IMO There's really no reason to advocate using a tank that doesn't have one.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I have tried to answer your initial question several times. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough.

From PSI:

Conditions and people ofter are not average so a VCI is appropriate whenever a problem is suspected. An alert owner or service technician may receive clues about possible cylinder damage. They should consider an immediate visual inspection when any of the following occur:
1. cylinder exterior is damaged
2. internal noise
3. increased weight
4. evidence of corrosion product on regulator filter
5. cylinder completely emptied or burst disk fails
6. air compressor defective or air smells unusual
7. previous history is unknown
8. the valve is removed
9. after hydrostatic re-test
10. after long term storage (about 6 months for most environments)

These are PSI Standards agree or not; you asked what they were. As for the initial VCI, the dip-tube and valve should have been inspected so that really the dip-tube should not have fallen out.

Quite frankly, you had given me your personal opinion once before, and didn't cite PSI that I am aware of. In this post, you did list PSI standards, which does any my question.

However, it also goes against what ST and Phil, both dive shop owners, have told me, that my removing the valve and fixing this is fine. Can either three of you comment? The dip tube rolling around says the tank should be inspected, the fact that the valve is removed says it should be inspected, if either action means it needs to be inspected, isn't that a catch22? However, a dive shop would never know that I took the valve off, unless they checked and found my tank was empty, which they might do, especially since some shops love to nit pick.

How much does the PSI course cost and where can I take it? Pretty much I'm tired of dealing with crap from any shop and I'd love to be a certified inspector so I can yell back confidently at them. (you don't need to answer this question, I'm sure I can find that answer)

And Phil--there's a shop in my town (ok, 45 minutes from my town, near a river where alot of people go to tube) that is, as far as I know, just a fill shop. They run it out of their home and don't have any other product for sale. Sure, I could spend half a million and get a nice shop in a good location and be a dealer for multiple companies, but isn't it possible to start out just offering vips and fills? I could work with the local hydro shop to offer those too, through them. I know running a dive shop isn't exactly easy, as no business venture is easy and most of them fail, but I seriously think I could run a shop with a nice environment and better service at the same price, if not lower, than several other shops around, especially if I could get into VIP's and gear repair. There's only one guy locally certified to work on regs from most companies, every shop sends their gear to him. If I got the same certifications as he has, I could offer better service, faster and cheaper. He takes atleast a week, and my regs were returned freeflowing like mad, unstoppably, and I paid $100 for it too.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Who the heck keeps a pint of seawater in their tanks?

JJW, this is an episode of using your common sense rather than following standards to a T. If all you're going to do is drain the tanks, pull out the dip tube, screw it into the valve, and put the valve back on the tank to fill it...there's no need to do an entire visual inspection. I would use the opportunity to take a peek inside the cylinders real fast but that's about it.

 

[Hoosier]

You are not considering the issue of internal rust in a steel tank. When I looked in my PST HP120 after it failed VIP, I was amazed at how much rust (yes, real rust with particulates) was inside. Flakes of that rust falling into the bottom could have later clogged my dip tube under the wrong conditions.

NO.. I acknowledge the rust issue inside because mine had the same flakes like you you had. Mine was completely cleaned with a chemical rust remover. However, my point is if LDS can't fill the tank because of the dip tube, it doesn't make sense because we know that VIP thing is a market/industry standard. I don't recall that a dip tube is a "must have" item on PSI standard (please let me know if I am wrong).

Yeah, it can be regarded as an insurance. If then, why an annual inspection instead of every 6 month or 4 month?

Furthermore, if there are many tanks' fails due to the wet fill in this scuba industry, why doesn't the scuba industry force every 6 month or 4 month air inspection instead of asking more frequnet VIP to the customer?

As I recall, Dr.Bill's tanks issue was due to the bad fill or wet fill on the boat..

 

[oxyhacker]

But notice that the standards say "should consider" not "must". The inspector is given discretion, and a wise inspector who is interested in promoting dive safety rather than playing "gotcha" will use that discretion.

My feeling is the noise in the tank is a defect, and a shop shouldn't fill a tank with a known defect, nor customer expect them to. One of the principles of dive safety is not to make assumptions, but to verify. In this case, while it is very likely the problem was just a loose dip tube, and relatively harmless, verification (and correction) are so simple there is no excuse to let the condition go unaddressed.

The situation regarding VIPing the tank afterwards is not as clear. The standards mention the valve being off as possible grounds for requiring a VIP because whenever the valve has been off there is a chance of contaminants finding their way into the tank if it was done improperly and the longer the valve has been off, the greater the chance. But if the tech has just removed the valve him or herself, and replaced it minutes after then there is neglible chance that contaminants may have entered the tank, so there would be no reason to require a new VIP.

A lot of unecessary grief is cause by overzealous shops and inspectors mistaking "may" for "must" and failing to exercise a little common sense!

I have tried to answer your initial question several times. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough.

From PSI:

Conditions and people ofter are not average so a VCI is appropriate whenever a problem is suspected. An alert owner or service technician may receive clues about possible cylinder damage. They should consider an immediate visual inspection when any of the following occur:
1. cylinder exterior is damaged
2. internal noise
3. increased weight
4. evidence of corrosion product on regulator filter
5. cylinder completely emptied or burst disk fails
6. air compressor defective or air smells unusual
7. previous history is unknown
8. the valve is removed
9. after hydrostatic re-test
10. after long term storage (about 6 months for most environments)

 

[PhilEllis]

And Phil--there's a shop in my town (ok, 45 minutes from my town, near a river where alot of people go to tube) that is, as far as I know, just a fill shop. They run it out of their home and don't have any other product for sale. Sure, I could spend half a million and get a nice shop in a good location and be a dealer for multiple companies, but isn't it possible to start out just offering vips and fills? I could work with the local hydro shop to offer those too, through them. I know running a dive shop isn't exactly easy, as no business venture is easy and most of them fail, but I seriously think I could run a shop with a nice environment and better service at the same price, if not lower, than several other shops around, especially if I could get into VIP's and gear repair. There's only one guy locally certified to work on regs from most companies, every shop sends their gear to him. If I got the same certifications as he has, I could offer better service, faster and cheaper. He takes atleast a week, and my regs were returned freeflowing like mad, unstoppably, and I paid $100 for it too.

I assume that could possibly be a workable business model in SOME parts of the country, but not in most. Certainly not where I am located. It seems to work with Fill Express, even though he also has the benefit of about a million dollars a year in Dive Rite sales, so it isn't fair to call Fill Express a "fills only" store.

I can't say anything about regulators being improperly serviced and performing worse after annual service. I have heard that this is very common. It IS NOT COMMON with my customers. While we might occasionally send a serviced regualtor out with a problem, that occurance is so small as to almost be invisible. We service about 50 regulators per month, much more during the high season. We do them correctly. They don't free flow when they go into the water. The hoses are not loose. The mouthpieces do not fall off. We do them correctly. We test them FULLY before they leave our store....not just check the hp and the immediate pressure and purge them a few times. We do a complete atmospheric inhalation test across the entire flow range of the regulator. Unfortunately, our service is not "cheap". When done properly, it cannot be done "cheap". Thanks for your business.

Phil Ellis

 

[Ann Marie]

However, it also goes against what ST and Phil, both dive shop owners, have told me, that my removing the valve and fixing this is fine. Can either three of you comment?

PSI Instructor

Quite frankly, you had given me your personal opinion once before, and didn't cite PSI that I am aware of. In this post, you did list PSI standards, which does any my question.

In your original post, you also asked for opinions, hence my opinion (abet an educated one) was given.

 

[Scared Silly]

But notice that the standards say "should consider" not "must". The inspector is given discretion, and a wise inspector who is interested in promoting dive safety rather than playing "gotcha" will use that discretion.

My feeling is the noise in the tank is a defect, and a shop shouldn't fill a tank with a known defect, nor customer expect them to. One of the principles of dive safety is not to make assumptions, but to verify. In this case, while it is very likely the problem was just a loose dip tube, and relatively harmless, verification (and correction) are so simple there is no excuse to let the condition go unaddressed.

The situation regarding VIPing the tank afterwards is not as clear. The standards mention the valve being off as possible grounds for requiring a VIP because whenever the valve has been off there is a chance of contaminants finding their way into the tank if it was done improperly and the longer the valve has been off, the greater the chance. But if the tech has just removed the valve him or herself, and replaced it minutes after then there is neglible chance that contaminants may have entered the tank, so there would be no reason to require a new VIP.

A lot of unecessary grief is cause by overzealous shops and inspectors mistaking "may" for "must" and failing to exercise a little common sense!

This is what I and several others have been trying to say - "exercise a little common sense". This is for both the customer and the store. The store was perhaps a little over zealous in requiring a formal inspection but the cylinder came in with a known "defect". I would say each share some responsibility.

So JJW if you want to fix this yourself slowly drain the cylinder, remove the valve, place a couple sheets of white paper on a table, turn the cylinder upside down and dump the dip tube out on to the paper. If nothing but the dip tube comes out (i.e. you do not see rust flakes, or other particulates) screw the dip back on, and put the valve back on. If you find more than just the dip I would suggest putting the valve back on and taking down to your favorite shop for a full inspection.


Because you have two cylinders here is a poor man's whip. Align the two cylinder valves together. Hold the valves really tight and open the empty valve then crack the full cylinder valve. Close the empty cylinder valve first then the full cylinder vavle. This will force a little air into the empty cylinder. Not much but some. I would do this after a flying with bottles as I often could not get down to the shop to fill them. Now I have a whip.

 

[Ann Marie]

A lot of unecessary grief is cause by overzealous shops and inspectors mistaking "may" for "must" and failing to exercise a little common sense!

Unfortunately I'm sure the same can be said of much of our judicial system.