PSI regulations pertaining to dip tube and vip

[JahJahwarrior]

So, I bought an aluminum 100 at Cave Excursions in High Springs a few months back. The dip tube fell out, it rolls around inside. Rich Courtney there, a person whose opinion I trust fairly well, told me that it wasn't an issue, that unless it bothered me, I could wait until it was due for a VIP to have it reinserted. Not a problem with me, I don't care, infact, it helps me tell my tanks apart. I use the one that rattles first, then the one that doesn't. Today after a dive I went to a new dive shop, Divers Direct in Orlando. I wasn't very happy overall...my buddy had a PST HP 120, and they can't fill it because it doesn't fit in their bombproof tank filling mailbox thingy.....what retarded person designed a box that won't hold a tank that's only 2 inches or so taller than mine? Already i am very underimpressed with their fill station and filling abilities. (Maybe I'm spoiled, but I'm used to a place where you can get any mix you want and they'll pump it up right for you, and it's cheaper than any other place around. If I pay more than $4 for an air fill, I'm not happy.) Thats ok, he'll get his tank filled back in Gainesville (he was visiting) then they tell me that my tank needs a VIP because the dip tube has fallen off and PSI regulations require a new VIP. I told them "thank you very much" took my tank and left. I don't really plan on returning. (they are far away, closer shops exist)

So, can anyone tell me what your opinion on the safety of a tank with a slippery diptube is, what PSI regulations exist, what your dive shop would do/has done, and if you think it would be unsafe, unethical or unwise for me to drain the tank, remove the valve, reinsert the diptube, put the valve back on and take the tank for a fill would be, as well as if a dive shop would or should require a vip because the tank came in empty. The tank was manufactured in 04, and it's VIP is from April of this year.

If there are PSI regulations about it, that's one thing, but I would still protest, because PSI regulations are not law, and neither I nor the dive shop is required by law to follow them in order to fill a tank, as far as I am aware (If I am wrong, correct me). Probably, I'll leave the tank at 1400 psi and swing by CE when I'm in town in three weeks and get Rich to fix it for me, but if there's no PSI regulations about it, I'm leaving it like it is. Gives the tank character.

(as for the need for a dip tube, "water in the tank," etc, I would like to know if ther eis moisture in my tank, because that could cause dangerous corrosion, and if I find I got a bad fill, then I can immediately notify the dive shop and request that they reVIP my tank and service my regulator as well as issue a written apology for trying to kill me. )

 

[scubatoys]

Unscrew the valve... dump out the dip tube... put it back on. Screw on the valve. Tell them apart with something besides the rattle... case closed.

 

[Scared Silly]

PSI does not have regulations they have standards and reccomendations. Anytime you can hear something in a cylinder it should be drained and inspected BEFORE it is filled. I will play devil's advocat for a minute - how do you know it is the dip tube? Are you confident that whatever is rolling around in your cylinder will NEVER EVER block the valve inlet, potentially cutting off you air supply? Can you be confident that the rest of the valve is in proper working condition?

As PSI Inspector, I would drain the cylinder, remove the dip tube, inspect it and the valve for any damage or the reason for it coming off, reattach it to the valve, because the valve is off I would take a quick look in the cylinder, then put the valve back on, and fill it. Your charge - one fill.

I would not harp on the shop in the least bit - they were looking out for their and your best interest. I am quite surprised that Rich did not say bring it in and we will take care of it free, given that it was a new cylinder.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

ST--if I brought in an empty tank to get it filled, would you all raise cain and insist it needed a VIP?

Scared Silly--I can't be 100% certain, but I'm been using the cylinder much more than the other tank, and I've spent time inverted and I have not noticed a problem. I've probably got 5 dives onit since the tube fell off, with about 3.5-4 hours of time total, and haven't had the airway blocked.

And it fell off after getting a fill, I noticed it rattling when I got home. I emailed Rich and he told me that he'd fix it no charge, no need to re vip it, but that I would have to pay for the fill, and that I should probably just wait. If the guy at the store had said "Oh, hey, I'll need to open it up and reattach your dip tube really fast, it'll take 10 minutes, is that cool?" then I would have even offered to pay him $5 for his time. As it was, he told me my dip tube had fallen off, that PSI regulations (reccomendations/guidelines/"what the book says") required it be revipped. (He and Rich have both told me it's the dip tube) I didn't want to put up with any bullcrap, i've learned never to listen to employees of large stores like that. While my friend looked around, I listened to another employee telling customers that their masks and snorkels bought other places like Walmart or Sports Authority were pretty much trash, and that they'd need to spend alot of money, "My mask, for scuba diving, was $120, and that's one of six that I own. You have to pay alot to get a mask that doesn'tleak, because you don't want to be wasting air to clear your mask." Eh, my $12 mask from Leisure pro works well enough, and a $60 mask would be considered an extreme luxury. $120....that sucker better be custom molded to my face! And, how does it waste air to clear your mask? I inhale, and exhale. I was going to inhale and exhale anyways, I just exhaled through my nose instead. I trust some people, like Rich, but the crap you get from most dive shops, especially large chain shops, is just that, crap. I also noticed a sign in the store that repair times would be 2-3 weeks because they shipped everythign to their other store in Dania Beach to be worked on. I can get quicker service from the crappy stores in Gainesville that just love to rape you with their prices.

I guess that I've had enough annoying/bad experiences with dive shops everywhere I go that I'm starting to become extremely cynical and distrustful of all of them except for the few that have never done me wrong, like Cave Excursions. The customer service in many dive shops around everywhere seems to absolutely suck, and the customer service attitude of many of the big manufacturers seems to suck as well. Companies seem to want to try to make a profit by pulling as much money out of your pocket as they can, rather than by making a loyal customer for life who will gladly return to spend money with you again. The simple fact that places like Scubatoys and Cave Excursions can and will cut the price of things by huge amounts to match or beat other companies seems to show that there is a lot of profit built into sales. If a shop is making money off of me, I don't think they need to charge me $20 to revip a tank that was just vipped four months ago. If they had offered to do it for free, then I would have offered to pay for it, and if they had refused, then I would have gone and found some things I had been thinking about buying, maybe $10 worth of stuff, and gone ahead and gotten it, and/or I would be back often to do just that, and I would tell everyone how well they had treated me. Why don't dive shops undrstand the simple principles of management that I am learning in my freshmen year of college? Customer, service and profit orientation. Give the customer what they want, go out of your way to provide top notch service, and work in an industry where you can do that and make a profit. I know it's hard, but golly whiz if every dive shop was like Cave Excursions, I think the amount of complaining that goes on here about LDS's would drop considerably!

 

[scubatoys]

ST--if I brought in an empty tank to get it filled, would you all raise cain and insist it needed a VIP?

Really wouldn't care... We'd fill it it if has a good hydro and vip. For that matter, we'd screw in the dip tube if you were there with it... have done it a bunch of times.

 

[Scared Silly]

JahJah, what you are seeing is the difference between "going by the book" and being practical. Three of four who have chimed in have been practical. Being practical is what you are calling good customer service.

However, one thing to consider. When you took the cylinder in for a fill you knew the dip tube had come off. So you could have given the guy in the shop a heads up as well. Might even gone as far to say "hey I am pretty sure the dip tube has come off, my local shop said they would fix it for free as I just recently bought the cylinder but have not have had a chance to get it to them." The shop guy might have offered to do it for you for free as well.

As I say do not fault the shop too much ...

 

[Ann Marie]

If you take a cylinder into any shop with something rolling around inside and they fill it without taking a look inside and removing any foreign material is not giving you good customer service, they are taking a short cut. Unless you have seen that it is the dip tube that has come off, how can you be sure. I know that chances are that it is the dip-tube, but what if it's not?

BTW, part of the visual inspection is inspection of the valve including the dip-tube.

Might even gone as far to say "hey I am pretty sure the dip tube has come off, my local shop said they would fix it for free as I just recently bought the cylinder but have not have had a chance to get it to them."

Excellent advice!!

 

[captain]

This is where having a transfill whip comes in handy. Dive the tank until it's down to a couple of hundered pounds, vent it to zero, pull the valve, replace the dip tube and put 50 or a 100 psi in it with the whip, take it to get filled.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

When the guy said the dip tube was rolling around inside, I immediately said "yeah, it fell off pretty soon after I bought them, the store owner who vipped them said it would be fine until the next vip and not to worry with replacing it." Then he told me again that it needed to be vipped and that he wouldn't fill it.

So maybe I should have told him before hand....no other shop has ever asked or questioned it, I didn't think about it.

As for them taking a short cut, I almost agree with you that it is right of them to question anything questionable, but when they did and I told them what was up, I think they should have recognized that the tank is fine and filled it, or should have offered to fix it for cheap or for free. Instead they tried to push a VIP on me, and I don't knwo if they ship their tanks down to Dania to be inspected, thus giving a 2-3 week wait on VIP's too, I didn't bother to ask, Idon't need it filled, and I can fix it myself, take it to CE, or go to a shop that will do what I want

As for a transfill whip, that's one of the things I'd love to have, but looking at some TDL ones, they cost around $200. That's more than I paid for the tank. It'd be cheaper for me to buy another tank than to buy the transfill whip.

I might just open it up and fix it myself. I just know that dive shops love to give you crap about stuff.....If I could take it to a walk in freezer, the temperature in there would be low, so the air in the tank would be positively pressured when warmed up. Then if the shop cracked the valve they would have no worries.

Honestly, I am regretting moving to Orlando, primarily because I don't think I'll ever find a store that has as much to offer for such a low price with such great customer service as Cave Excursions. I'd gladly pay $5 a fill for a Cave Excursions down here.

But only if all of the employees were like Rich. Pretty much I hate it when I stop at CE to get anything and he's not there. One of the employees won't stop asking my why I never get nitrox, and he never takes off his sunglasses or smiles. Another one isn't a diver and just barely knows what he is doing. Rich is the only guy that fills my tanks up right, and can/will cut me a deal. The other employees aren't as smart, nice or powerful as Rich is.

So some of it is the shop and their management principles, but alot of it does come down to the employees. The store here though doesn't seem to cater at all to any type of technical or cave diving, and maybe that's what I love? Except I really don't like that one store that's actually in high springs...extreme exposure? They were badmouthing Rich and his fillstation the one and only time Iw ent in there, and everything was Halcyon, and overpriced.

I need to get a fill station and some insurance, take a gas mixing class and a PSI class and run my own dive shop. I think I could run it right. Larry/Joe, you want to hire an intern?

Ann Marie: what else could it be? Just out of curiosity. It doesn't sound like a ball rolling, it sounds like a pipe. I don't know what the difference is but I swear it's elongated and smooth, because it rolls smoothly. Corrosion wouldn't do that. If it was a nut or screw, it wouldn't roll, it would slide, or only roll some of the time and slide some of the time, and I think I could hear the difference maybe? I don't know....never had anything else inside of my tank except diptubes and air.

 

[fweber]

JahJah,

Ideally, Rich or whoever first notice the rattling in your tank would have opened it up, reattached the dip tube, given it a quick look to ensure all was still well and filled it. That didn't happen. Since then, you have been working on an assumption. Something I would recommend against. But, your perrogative, so go for it. However, you shouldn't expect shop employees to happily work on the same assumption. They wouldn't be providing good or conciencious service. Your shouldn't have to leave your tank for a VIP. But, if there isn't anyone there qualified to do so, the staff don't have any other avenue available to them.

Quit assuming all will be fine. There is a chunk of something that doesn't belong there, rattling around in your tank, begging for attention. If you start letting your standards for properly maintained gear slip, where will they finally come to rest?

The next time you get to CE and it isn't terribly busy, ask Rich to pop her open and reattach the dip tube. Problem solved.