PSI regulations pertaining to dip tube and vip

[Ann Marie]

Ann Marie: what else could it be? Just out of curiosity. It doesn't sound like a ball rolling, it sounds like a pipe. I don't know what the difference is but I swear it's elongated and smooth, because it rolls smoothly. Corrosion wouldn't do that. If it was a nut or screw, it wouldn't roll, it would slide, or only roll some of the time and slide some of the time, and I think I could hear the difference maybe? I don't know....never had anything else inside of my tank except diptubes and air.

Like I said, it probably is the dip-tube but then again I once found a screw in a can of refried beans... Did you see the inside of the cylinder before you purchased it? There could have been something stuck to the side of the cylinder that worked itself free. I know, highly unlikely but who would have thought that they'd find a screw in refried beans?

A visual inspection really is only good until you walk out of the shop the day it was done. After that, anyone filling it is supposed to give it a cursory visual inspection. Should something be abnormal with that cylinder, it should have a viz before filling.

You are right, PSI standards aren't law but, PSI has been cited by U.S. courts as the standard of practice for visual inspection of high pressure cylinders.

Now, as far as laws go, OSHA Title 29-1910.101a does require that each employer shall determine that compressed gas cylinders under his control are in a safe condition to the extent that this can be determined by visual inspection.

In your first post you also mentioned that if there was a problem with your cylinder having water because of a problem at the shop you would be upset, yet when the shop wanted to make sure there is no problem with your cylinder, you were upset. Is it because they wanted to charge you?

I'm not being contrary, I'm just trying to answer your initial question. :10:

(How about this for being upset-- today, I picked up a cylinder I had dropped off at a shop to be O2 cleaned, vized and filled. I dropped it off 3 weeks ago. Since I hadn't heard from the shop, I thought I'd stop in after dives today. It was ready and just sitting there. Thanks for the call guys. I asked for a 36% mix, got 38.5% instead and then got attitude when I mentioned it. (I didn't ask them to change it, I just mentioned it.) When I got home, I noticed that there was no new viz sticker and no O2 clean sticker. I called and asked them to mail it to me (1/2 hour drive away). Nope, gotta bring in the cylinder. Total cost $68.00 and I have to make a trip back.)

 

[drbill]

Personally, I would expect the tank to requirte a VIP. An unscrewed dip tube isn't the harmless situation that some people here seem to claim. I've had particulates in the tank fall INTO the dip tube and stop all air flow out of the valve. This was WITH the dip tube in place. Image any particulates in the tank WITHOUT the dip tube in place and I think you would have a much higher probability of debris getting trapped in the valve. Dip tubes do not just present water from exiting the valve, but particulates as well.

I would expect to have a VIP done on a tank like that. Personally, I think those who are suggesting popping open the tank, rethreading the dip tube and reseating the valve are suggesting something that I would not recommend.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I've never personally seen the inside of the tank, but it has been Vip'd by CE. I will get him to fix it now that I realize every other shop is anal about it.

As for "you could have other crap in there," what if I turn the tank upside down when I take the valve off? I can look around with a flashlight and all, but I'm not PSI certified so I probably don't know what dirt looks like

No one has answered my original question: What does PSI say about when a tank requires a visual inspection? Because I have one shop telling me it doesnt' need one, and another shop telling me it does, and I'm just assuming that CE vip's their tanks using PSI standards--are there other companies?

As for the assumption about it being the dip tube, both Rich and....we'll call him Carl, no clue what his name is, but Carl and Rich both told me it was the dip tube. It wasn't my first assumption, I had no clue what it was, but I've had one person I trust tell me not to worry about it, as it is the dip tube and that its not really that important, as the tank shouldn't have any crud in it (shouldn't we hold the fillstations to a higher stnadard if crap is getting into our tank??), and another person toss around his PSI inspector credentials and tell me the other guy is full of it.

Divers Direct also has a mailbox style slide in steel box to fill tanks in, "in case they explode." Does anyone know why they do that? My buddy has three PST HP 120s that won't fit into their mailbox, why would they buy something that wouldn't fit every tank on the market? Also, I've never seen a place be so worried about a tank exploding. Is tank explosion such a common occurance that they couldn't stand his tank outisde of the mailbox to fill it? When an organization has multiple layers of management and the employee is not allowed to deviate from the rules, which are set by the higher ups, well that's not a very customer oriented organization, and wouldn't work well for a scuba shop.

My last complaint is that while they have a large show room with all sorts of cool stuff, not only do they not have any of the things I like to see, such as backplates and wings and heavy duty lights/canister lights (products by DiveRite, OMS, Halcyon, Salvo, etc) or even line arrows, but alot of their products do not have a price on them, the rack just has a slot for a price and nothing is in it. Why can't some employee spend an hour putting prices on everything? The most annoying thing, after being told that neither of our tanks are fillable, is to have no clue what the price on an item is, that takes away from a customers sense of empowerment and I hate that.

Oh, and someone mentioned that after it leaves the shop it was vip'd at, every shops ought to do a visual inspection on it before filling it. Do you mean an external one, or an internal one? While I agree it'd be nice if every shop could see inside of my tank, I think it is unnecesary. I even think requiring a yearly visual inspection borders on un needed, though having the ability get one done would be nice and I would stil do it from time to time. I'd much prefer if prices were graded based on when you got your last inspection, if it was over a year ago, fill prices go up a buck or something. I hate regulations, especially ones that anindustry invents that seem to have some impact on safety but not always as much as to make the hassle worthwhile. Also, some shops charge as much to vip a tank as to hydro it, some shops rape you for the price of a vip, and I absolutely hate that.


Thanks for the good advice everyone, even if I don't agree with it all, I appreciate hearing from people who are qualified to make truthworthy statements about this stuff and will take it all into consideration.

 

[Hoosier]

I have seen many valves that didn't have a dip tube inside as a PSI inspector. I am wondering if they know exactly what is for. As long as their fill is clean enough, technically it isn't necessary to have... Am I right?

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I would fix it and not let it go. It's okay to do it yourself. The empty tank rule is really only an issue for rental tanks. There shouldn't be a problem with your own tank.

 

[PhilEllis]

I need to get a fill station and some insurance, take a gas mixing class and a PSI class and run my own dive shop. I think I could run it right.

I think I know they type of dive store you want to run....one with well-trained employees, lots of variety in merchandise, skilled equipment repair technicians. Hey, get that fill station, insurance, take some mix classes and a PSI class and you are real close to runing your own dive store. You will only need another $500,000 and you will be all set

On a serious note, simply drain the cylinders, replace the dip tube, and fill the cylinder. I don't see a real problem. Happens here all of the time.

Thanks.

Phil Ellis

 

[Ann Marie]

I have tried to answer your initial question several times. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough.

From PSI:

Conditions and people ofter are not average so a VCI is appropriate whenever a problem is suspected. An alert owner or service technician may receive clues about possible cylinder damage. They should consider an immediate visual inspection when any of the following occur:
1. cylinder exterior is damaged
2. internal noise
3. increased weight
4. evidence of corrosion product on regulator filter
5. cylinder completely emptied or burst disk fails
6. air compressor defective or air smells unusual
7. previous history is unknown
8. the valve is removed
9. after hydrostatic re-test
10. after long term storage (about 6 months for most environments)

These are PSI Standards agree or not; you asked what they were. As for the initial VCI, the dip-tube and valve should have been inspected so that really the dip-tube should not have fallen out.

 

[captain]

As for a transfill whip, that's one of the things I'd love to have, but looking at some TDL ones, they cost around $200. That's more than I paid for the tank. It'd be cheaper for me to buy another tank than to buy the transfill whip. .

A couple of old tank pressure check gauges from ebay, 3 or 4 feet of 1/4 inch copper tubing and some fittings and you can make one for less than 75 bucks, maybe a lot less.

 

[Charlie99]

From PSI:

Conditions and people ofter are not average so a VCI is appropriate whenever a problem is suspected. An alert owner or service technician may receive clues about possible cylinder damage. They should consider an immediate visual inspection when any of the following occur:
1. cylinder exterior is damaged
2. internal noise
3. increased weight
4. evidence of corrosion product on regulator filter
5. cylinder completely emptied or burst disk fails
6. air compressor defective or air smells unusual
7. previous history is unknown
8. the valve is removed
9. after hydrostatic re-test
10. after long term storage (about 6 months for most environments)

These are PSI Standards agree or not; you asked what they were. As for the initial VCI, the dip-tube and valve should have been inspected so that really the dip-tube should not have fallen out.

The list above makes sense to me, except for the last item. Why would PSI recommend (or is that "require"?) a visual after 6 months of storage?

 

[drbill]

I have seen many valves that didn't have a dip tube inside as a PSI inspector. I am wondering if they know exactly what is for. As long as their fill is clean enough, technically it isn't necessary to have... Am I right?

You are not considering the issue of internal rust in a steel tank. When I looked in my PST HP120 after it failed VIP, I was amazed at how much rust (yes, real rust with particulates) was inside. Flakes of that rust falling into the bottom could have later clogged my dip tube under the wrong conditions.