PSI regulations pertaining to dip tube and vip

[Doubles]

Hijack........................

I am not a PSI inspector. Therefore, I don't know if PSI is advocating the use of a black light to detect hydrocarbons. If so, they are simply dead wrong. You CANNOT see the level of hydrocarbons that are likely to cause a serious problem in a scuba cylinder using a black light. The only method of detecting hydrocarbons would be the use of a much more expensive and time consuming process like a millipore weight test or possibly some other derivative testing procedure.

In the scuba industry, the ONLY way we have of producing a cylinder that is sufficient for oxygen service is to follow a PROCESS of cleaning that is designed to YIELD a clean cylinder. Just thought I would once again make this point. Thanks.

Phil Ellis

I am not a PSI inspector either - However if you read the material on PSI's website it does mention the use of a black light to detect hydrocarbons. That said even though a black light won't detect all hydrocarbons why not use it if it will detect "some". I agree with you on proper 02 cleaning of the cylinder and would add that the valve should also be done at the same time.

I am curious on how many valves get taken apart and 02 cleaned at the same time as the tanks?

Cheers

-s

 

[JahJahwarrior]

You can't blame a shop for not wanting to risk putting 100% 02 in a tank that was filled elsewhere. Tanks do explode - not often, but it only has to happen once.

Any shop that refuses to fill a tank with the valid markings and stickers that are current and up to date has lost my business permanently, unless they will quickly inspect my cylinder at no cost to me.

The VIP thing is an industry imposed regulation, as best as I understand it (though, PSI does require update classes every three years, "as per federal law" that requires those classes. Can anyone explain this to me?). If one shop can't trust another shop, well, something needs to change.

The only policy like that which I would support is for them to refuse to fill cylinders VIP'd by a guy they know does it badly. For example, if all the shops in town refuse to fill a tank vipped by "John" because they know he does a bad job.

It's ok for the shop to be suspicious, but I also won't support a shop that charges me $15 for a vip becuase they are suspicious. Because they are getting the money, that seems to me to be a conflict of interests. The only way for them to remain unbiased is to not charge if they are only testing because they don't like your sticker. If they do charge, then they are making money....conflict of interests. They have a reason other than being suspcious to want to look at your cylinder, your money moving to their pocket. If a shop wants to check my gear without charging me, I'm totally fine with that and will actively support such a shop.

If a shop is so worried that every other shop is doing it wrong, they need medication or a bomb proof mailbox

 

[The Chairman]

Honestly, I am regretting moving to Orlando, primarily because I don't think I'll ever find a store that has as much to offer for such a low price with such great customer service as Cave Excursions.

I think we lost SIX Dive Shops in the Orlando area since last DEMA. I am currently using Wet 'n Fla on Lake Mary Blvd. Phil is on the Board, and if you mention you are from ScubaBoard you will get a friendly reception!

 

[jiveturkey]

Any shop that refuses to fill a tank with the valid markings and stickers that are current and up to date has lost my business permanently, unless they will quickly inspect my cylinder at no cost to me.

...If one shop can't trust another shop, well, something needs to change.

They are under no obligation to fill your tank. If a filler suspects something fishy about a vip sticker they can just refuse the fill. They may lose your business but that's their prerogative. In the days of lawyers et al, they don't want fingers pointed should something go wrong.

Some shops around here will not fill tanks with a vip sticker they do not recognize. My LDS will not fill an aluminum tank that has not had a visual + or visual eddy test. My LDS will not fill certain tanks with many "SP" markings such as sp6498. I understand that not all shops have the same requirements but each shop is allowed to make their own policies.

I'd go back to the guy that sold you the tank, especially since he offered to fix it. It sounds like they forgot to tighten the tube. No biggie.

 

[captain]

They are under no obligation to fill your tank. If a filler suspects something fishy about a vip sticker they can just refuse the fill. They may lose your business but that's their prerogative. In the days of lawyers et al, they don't want fingers pointed should something go wrong.

Some shops around here will not fill tanks with a vip sticker they do not recognize. My LDS will not fill an aluminum tank that has not had a visual + or visual eddy test. My LDS will not fill certain tanks with many "SP" markings such as sp6498. I understand that not all shops have the same requirements but each shop is allowed to make their own policies.

I'd go back to the guy that sold you the tank, especially since he offered to fix it. It sounds like they forgot to tighten the tube. No biggie.

Here's the problem. Say I am getting ready for a dive trip 1000 miles away. I am bringing 8 of my personal tanks that have just been inspected by my local LDS. Once I use up my tanks I go to get them filled and Joe Blow's dive shop says he wont recognize the VIP from my LDS and won't fill them unless he VIP's them. Now Joe Blow is better than Jessie James was, Jessie James had to use a gun to rob people of their money. That's why I have a compressor that travels with me.

 

[jiveturkey]

That's why I have a compressor that travels with me.

Lol. That's the only way to get a fill for sure. You could always call the shop in advance and find out their policy. Much of the scuba industry is unregulated but I'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing overall. I see problems with the status quo but governments often have a way of mucking things up when they step in.

 

[oxyhacker]

Black light can be a useful adjunct, so some techs like to use it as a means of doublechecking, but is no substitute for cleaning due to its limitations. It's probably more useful on the outside of things, for detecting contamination that occurs during servicing than on the inside of the tank. What is a bit scary is the number of people using or selling UV inspection lights who don't seem to be aware of how unreliable it is or believe it is a substitute for cleaning.

Valves should absolutely, without exception, always be O2 cleaned when a tank is. It is an essential part of the O2 cleaning process. Most O2 tank conflagrations where it is possible to detirmine the point of origin start in the valve since that's the bottleneck where the adiabatic heating takes place, and where fuel is available in the form of grease and plastics.

It is a amazing testimony to the powers of pigheaded stupidity that you still hear of shops that O2 clean the tank but not the valve.

BTW, to the guy who wants to take a PSI course, by all means do if it interests you, but be warned that many shops will not honor inspections done by individual (non-shop) inspectors. Also remember that by inspecting other people's tanks for money you become liable should something go wrong. Diveshops have liablility insurance to protect them against such things, but you do not.

I am not a PSI inspector either - However if you read the material on PSI's website it does mention the use of a black light to detect hydrocarbons. That said even though a black light won't detect all hydrocarbons why not use it if it will detect "some". I agree with you on proper 02 cleaning of the cylinder and would add that the valve should also be done at the same time.

I am curious on how many valves get taken apart and 02 cleaned at the same time as the tanks?

Cheers

-s

 

[oxyhacker]

Yes. Federal hazmat regulations require that any employee working with hazmats undergo training after being hired, and refesher training every three years. PSI is using this as a rationale for requiring PSI inspectors to attend a PSI update course every 3 years to keep their PSI certification active.

However, some feel this is a bit self serving, since the requirement for 3 year training is not related to a person's PSI certification, but rather their possible status as an employee handling hazmats, who would usually require retraining even if they were not a PSI inspector. And since there is no requirement at all for an individual who is not a hazmat employee to undergo retraining, insisting that all PSI inspectors must take fairly expensive PSI recertification courses, and only from PSI, every 3 years because it is "federal law" is a bit of a stretch.

And while the PSI course is a good way to fulfil the requirement, for those who really need to, PSI has no particular mandate or authorization to give the course - a shop or an individual can even self train, using DOT or other course materials, and the DOT gives free courses around the country that meet the requirements.

(though, PSI does require update classes every three years, "as per federal law" that requires those classes. Can anyone explain this to me?).

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Lol. That's the only way to get a fill for sure. You could always call the shop in advance and find out their policy. Much of the scuba industry is unregulated but I'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing overall. I see problems with the status quo but governments often have a way of mucking things up when they step in.

You are correct, no shop has an obligation to fill my tank, but no shop has an obligation to remain open, as Netdoc pointed out with the fact that 6 shops have closed their doors recently. With the power of the internet and a little bit of stubborness, it is easy ti tell many many many people about a bad experience at a certain shop, which will factor into people's decision of which shop to go to. Shops need to realize that they need a balance of safety and customer service, they need to not blow up customers, or alienate them.

In which case I agree wholeheartedly with Captain. My tanks were vip'd by Cave Excursions. They must not to do too badly, as they offer pure o2, and fill to very high pressures without question. If they were not cleaning cylinders correctly, or checking them correctly, I'd think more would blow up or catch on fire. If I need to get my anks vipped by every shop i go to....that's ridiculous. Any shop that charges me for a vip because they don't trust the sticker already on it has pretty much lost all of my business for eternity and earned my hatred. I will go to great lengths to tell everyone I know how I got scrweed over.

BTW, to the guy who wants to take a PSI course, by all means do if it interests you, but be warned that many shops will not honor inspections done by individual (non-shop) inspectors. Also remember that by inspecting other people's tanks for money you become liable should something go wrong. Diveshops have liablility insurance to protect them against such things, but you do not.

Good points. I could understand the liability issue, and that's definitely a legit issue. But a shop refusing to accept a tank checked by a PSI inspector....that says they don't trust PSI inspectors. Somewhere, people HAVE to trust. It's just like the american currency. It has no intrinsic value unless people trust it. Vip is worthless unless people are willing to trust the inspector that inspected it, and I think shops need to trust it unless they have a real reason to not suspect it. In my case, I think the rattling dip tube was a legit reason to ask, but I do not agree thatit is rightof the shop to charge me for a vip when all it needs is maintennance. I'd pay to have the tube fixed, but don't need to pay for an inspection, as the tank was just inspected a few months back. So, if no one will trust vips, then people will stop supporting shops and move to their own compressors. KISS. Keep it simple stupid. If you make it too hard for the customer to get a fill, they'll not return to you.

And while the PSI course is a good way to fulfil the requirement, for those who really need to, PSI has no particular mandate or authorization to give the course - a shop or an individual can even self train, using DOT or other course materials, and the DOT gives free courses around the country that meet the requirements.

Can you give any more information on the DOT testing? Would a shop trust me as a DOT inspector? I want to know more!

 

[Scared Silly]

And since there is no requirement at all for an individual who is not a hazmat employee to undergo retraining, insisting that all PSI inspectors must take fairly expensive PSI recertification courses, and only from PSI, every 3 years because it is "federal law" is a bit of a stretch.

Vance, The PSI update is required every three years at most 4 years if there is a good reason you missed the three year mark (like when I missed it cause of death in the family). The update was $25 last year at DEMA. This year it is $35. Pretty cheap in my book. However, if you go past the 4 year mark you must retake the full course.

But everything else you note is spot on.

BTW I do my own cylinders and have yet to have someone question me - at least locally. But my shops know me.