Primary cause of preventable scuba deaths...poor judgment?

[dburg30]

And trust me, it took a lot of restraint NOT to head to our local quarry and see if anyone was there in the evening doing a dive. It was new, I was excited to dive, but thru the whole training thing, and starting a few years ago when I first wanted to dive, I had ALWAYS told myself this wasnt something I would take lightly.

LOL, now Sunday mornings... I'm usually there waiting for a buddy to show up

 

[tfsails]

As far as other options, there is only so much you can train. I mean should training orgs make you go to so many different dive conditions and have you dive them over and over and over and over etc, so that you wind up with a bazillion miles and a million dollars just to get 'basic' certification? Then you have to do x dives a month in y conditions or you get your card revoked?

This is exactly what's expected of an FAA-certificated pilot, especially if he's instrument-rated. Six hours of actual or simulated instrument time and six approaches within the last six months in order to remain "current" on instruments. Also there are certain VFR requirements to be met before a pilot can carry passengers.

That said, there is a saying among pilots that applies to scuba divers. Just subsitute "diver" for "pilot": "The superior pilot uses his superior judgment in order to avoid having to use his superior flying skills"

I've had "judgment" beaten into my head since my early twenties when I first got my pilot's license. I didn't start diving until in my fifties, but by that time some of the ideas of good judgment had crept through my thick skull. More than once I've marveled at how I managed to survive my late teens/early adulthood.

Judgment, to me, is the product of experience and maturity. I think it's vitally important to preach good judgment whether underwater or in a car or in an airplane. Young people tend to think they're indestructible, and sometimes act that way. That's poor judgment. It's up to their mentors to preach good judgment to them in hopes that some of the sermons will get through before they kill themselves or someone else.

 

[wmw999]

> Therefore the solution of better training (while a good goal in and of itself)
> isn't really going to change the accident statistics much

I'm not sure how to use the quote interface yet, so I'm quoting gbryan here. I'm also a newbie, but I'll reserve the right to disagree vehemently with this statement. The reason being that without some knowledge, newbies particularly might not even know what is good judgment or bad judgment. No, you can't force someone to be smart, consider the consequences, etc. But if someone has only been exposed to ideal situations and results it's not surprising if they don't understand the bad things that can happen. Reading here has helped me some, and I expect it to continue to help me. Not everyone has good internet access, and not everyone learns well that way.

It's too easy to blame the victim in accident scenarios; one thing that does is comfort the blamer that they'd never make that mistake.

I come from another accident-investigating culture, though, where people run out of time when dealing with emergencies as well. But the amount of time is significantly smaller than in scuba much of the time (yes, really). But the lead-in of bad decisions and "what can possibly go wrong" thinking is the same.

Education won't help everyone, but lack of knowledge is a strong component of lack of judgment. And if you don't even know what you don't know, how can you fix it?

WP

 

[dburg30]

> Therefore the solution of better training (while a good goal in and of itself)
> isn't really going to change the accident statistics much

I'm not sure how to use the quote interface yet, so I'm quoting gbryan here. I'm also a newbie, but I'll reserve the right to disagree vehemently with this statement. The reason being that without some knowledge, newbies particularly might not even know what is good judgment or bad judgment. No, you can't force someone to be smart, consider the consequences, etc. But if someone has only been exposed to ideal situations and results it's not surprising if they don't understand the bad things that can happen. Reading here has helped me some, and I expect it to continue to help me. Not everyone has good internet access, and not everyone learns well that way.

It's too easy to blame the victim in accident scenarios; one thing that does is comfort the blamer that they'd never make that mistake.

I come from another accident-investigating culture, though, where people run out of time when dealing with emergencies as well. But the amount of time is significantly smaller than in scuba much of the time (yes, really). But the lead-in of bad decisions and "what can possibly go wrong" thinking is the same.

Education won't help everyone, but lack of knowledge is a strong component of lack of judgment. And if you don't even know what you don't know, how can you fix it?

WP

Right, knowledge should be your training. That should give you enough knowledge to use your own best judgment, if you have any common sense

If someone has been trained and still makes the wrong choice they either have no common sense, of failed to use good judgment. Same thing happens in other areas where one mess up can be bad.

 

[spoolin01]

As far as other options, there is only so much you can train. I mean should training orgs make you go to so many different dive conditions and have you dive them over and over and over and over etc, so that you wind up with a bazillion miles and a million dollars just to get 'basic' certification? Then you have to do x dives a month in y conditions or you get your card revoked?

I mean this is a hobby / pastime / recreational 'sport' to most of the people that do it, and while I get that the training agencies should prepare new divers as well as they can, there is a point to where you have to make sure you keep it 'easy' enough that people are finding it a good value, and continue doing it, or you risk not having enough people getting certified to keep businesses interested in catering to us.

...

I think that's the problem. Some people just dont 'know when to say when', and you can lecture that all day long, but some people still just dont get it.

I think you've nailed this pretty well. I can only speak from personal experience, including observation of the few divers whose history I know well. Many, maybe most divers seem to conclude they're OK at rec depths after basic OW, and I think a sober assessment of the risks, in the context of common human abilities, explains that. The rest is amenable to learning from experience. Not that taking that approach is the most efficient, or results overall in the best satisfaction or fewest problems, but that would be true of driving too, yet almost none elect to do so. It's plain the issue isn't one of ignorance in the simple sense, there's a calculus going on.

Happy diving, a be mindful.

 

[Mike Boswell]

The deficiency of not studying liberal arts at my liberal arts college - is this a famous sailing poem?

No, not famous, not yet. It's my poem about Knowone, the James Joyce of Scubaboard.

It's not about sailing, either. It's about thinking, or perhaps more accurately, it's about the fear of thought.

 

[flots am]

I find that many of the diving deaths that I have read about are middle-aged people who have a medical problem while under water.

That's still a training and experience issue.

If panic and stress are replaced by calm, relaxed execution of pre-defined and practiced procedures, I think most of the underwater "medical problems" would vanish.

People need to know and respect their personal limitations when diving.

flots.

 

[Mike Boswell]

To me the number one cause of scuba deaths is poor judgment and I'm not sure you can influence someones judgment abilities or common sense. It seems to me you either have it or you don't.

I have spent my entire life in, on, or near the ocean, and the main point I would make about the ocean is that just about anyone can very quickly get in serious trouble.

Today there are big waves breaking along the beaches in San Diego, and I am sure the lifeguards will be extra busy pulling people out of the surf and the rip currents. They aren't stupid, they just "Don't know what they don't know".

Good judgement comes from experience: Experience comes from bad judgement.

 

[pelagic_by_nature]

Good judgement comes from experience: Experience comes from bad judgement.

I like that one

 

[knowone]

Aside the internetarium they gathered. On the shore by the swirling dark foreboding waters.
Friends, followers, emulators, ones that had heard but not witnessed.
"Hark where is knowone." is cried. "He is with us, another, He is always here."
The wind blows from all directions yet all is quiet. The air is heavy with anticipation.

Out to sea, in the distance begins an emergence. An imposing figure traversing towards, withdrawing from what appears a glimmering shield, a cloak of living entity that dissipates only when land is achieved.

They are but for a time no longer as one.

Calmly with authority, "We shall not dive here this day. We must retreat elsewhere, for our quest is ultimate, so we must aim high. There is much to learn. There is much to prepare. Here is beyond. We shall dive elsewhere."

"The dragon is to be appeased. She will become our ally.
Poseidon will keep watch upon us all, with only the most respectful receiving in return."

The groups steps were slow and yet large, having themselves quashed their disgruntlement and disagreements, with endless activity. The groups dissent with each other and the unknowing of the one that to some was unknown, quickly dissipated upon the complete realisation that goals previously beyond realms, were through co-operation and understanding, despite the endless tasks vigorously admonished by the one they call knowone, became the vessel by which to attain, and became within the group throughout the group joyous an eventuation.

There was much merry-ment that evening for achievement had been attained, with golden goblets of blood red wine, copious morsels of buxom maidens with horns a plenty of fruits and of venison. Such music and frivolity that the lone figure amongst the men, whilst there, was not noticeable in his thoughts, for there was but little time for self proclamation, for it was his soul, that being replenished through the fullfilment of each and of all, that provided his energy.

They retired as one, in preparation for further conquest, but with one noticeably absent.

For it was his responsibility to return from whence he came, to continue his singular quest to re-immerse, to achieve more, and to re-achieve.


To be as one again.


On the morrow on the shore by the swirling dark foreboding waters were gathered the friends the followers the emulators and the ones that had heard but not witnessed.
There was no hark and yet they could hear, and despite that no one appeared, the men knew they could continue in their quest to know, but more importantly to pass to those men that next shall come.