Pony Bottles on NJ Charters?

[dumpsterDiver]

I can reach my valves (single tank or doubles) at all times. I have yet to see someone be able to reach their pony valve. What I think is funny is how ardently people defend "ponies" as I have defined them over the redundant air source I prefer (stage bottle, slung). Why dont you explain that and convince me otherwise.

We keep revisiting how few dives I have. Perhaps I just have learned from the experience of far more capable and experienced divers than are present in this chat thread--maybe their logic in explanations is greater than the logic of the redundant air pony bottle. I mean, isn't that what we like to call education? Why should i learn solely from making mistakes?

You make a lot of assumption. Perhaps you have been taught by some very good divers, but to assume they are better than the people on this thread would be .... another unsubstantiated assumption.

the fact that you beleive that a back mounted pony bottle is inaccesible is evidence of ignorance, maybe not stupidity, but certainly a lack of exposure or even a total lack of self directed critical thinking. Possibly this issue alone will allow you to be a little more open minded about some of these related issues.

I have done thousands of pony dives over the last 30 years and i have never had to turn the valve on my back mounted pony. As was mentioned, if that is a concern then it can EASILY be addressed by mounting the gear in a particular manner.

You supposition that a 40 or even an 80 tank is necesary for redundancy is also indicative of being a little out of touch with normal considerations in recreational diving.

Now if you want me to convince you that a back mounted pony is better than a slung stage bottle, well I probably can not. The stage bottle in front and easily manipulatable is clearly a safer configuration and leaves the diver more options in certain emergency situations. my normal dive buddy wears his like that. However, I do not.

I prefer back mounted for simplicity and primarily because it does not get in my way when i am spearfsihing or catching lobsters. Also, when i DO carry a stage bottle of oxygen (and spearfish) the last thing i need is TWO bottles banging around in front.

Some of these issues come down to convienence, personal preference, desire for streamlined configuration and of course risk tolerance. Some of us happily accept a higher risk in exchange for a simpler cleaner configuration. As long as the person has critically evaluated these considerations and makes those decisions based on fact (rather than what they accept from some scuba god) I see no problem with it.

You seem also to be making a HUGE assumption that good buddy skills are an acceptable means to mitigate risk (and thus negate the utility of a pony bottle). In my opinion, within the recreational dive community, that it a very serious error in judgement. Recreational divers are very frequently getting split up, especially in dirty NJ shipwreck diving.. Certainly buddy separation is more likely than the need for a diver to turn the valve on the back mounted pony bottle.

If you had a few dozen years of experience to draw upon, maybe these conclusions will be as obvious to you as they are to me.

Remember, the goal of scuba is not to be as safe as possible or we would all be diving no deeper that 20 feet and less than 500 yards from shore.

 

[gsk3]

Certainly buddy separation is more likely than the need for a diver to turn the valve on the back mounted pony bottle.

Neither should ever happen, really.

If you had a few dozen years of experience to draw upon, maybe these conclusions will be as obvious to you as they are to me.

Ugh. Who's the "SCUBA God" now?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Neither should ever happen, really.



Ugh. Who's the "SCUBA God" now?

Yes divers SHOULD never get separated... how many dives do you have?

Seriously, your gear and procedures should provide some level of security and personal safety when things go wrong, bad things happen, buddies wig out, bail on you or otherwise totally screw up. I am talking about what DOES happen (from expereince) not what SHOULD happen based on a dive manual.


nobody SHOULD have to use a pony bottle, in fact I can recall only one time that i have ever had to use the pony and it was totally due to my personal mistake on a solo dive. Hope I don't sound too much like a sub-aqueous deity?

 

[Martini]

You are correct it shouldn't happen but it does. I saw the proof of that yesterday on a charter. As for the Scuba God question I have to agree with dumpster on this one. ScubaFeend made a comment with a huge assumption in it. I know the almost certainly know the individuals who trained him. They are great drivers with tons of experience and very good skills. They also have done very little NE diving lately. They are extremely skilled divers but not the end all be all of NE diving. You are both coming very close to coming across as GUE zealots something that your mentors work very hard to avoid. The sad fact is even while I agree with most of the ideas you guys are expressing it is getting lost in the delivery.

 

[Rescue Diver68]

Oh Dumpster Diver, you sure have a strong opinion for someone with only a few thousand dives

If you would just listen to these two with less than a hundred dive experiences between the two of them you may learn something and improve your dive skills.

 

[gsk3]

You are correct it shouldn't happen but it does. I saw the proof of that yesterday on a charter.

It's happened to me as well, once. Even though I could have brushed it off as inevitable since it happened with less than 4ft vis, I have made it a priority for it never to happen again. That has required a lot of time, effort, and some money, but to me it is worth it. Accepting that buddy separation could potentially happen under extreme circumstances is a good bit different than saying it will happen often enough that it might potentially coincide with a catastrophic gear failure. The odds of both happening at the same time are vanishingly small.

But even though I think that given proper team skills you could do without a pony, I am on record as being entirely comfortable with the dive boats' decisions to require a redundant air source, and I personally choose to dive that way (once you need more than 100 cf to do your dive anyway, might as well carry the extra gas in a way that increases safety).

You are both coming very close to coming across as GUE zealots something that your mentors work very hard to avoid. The sad fact is even while I agree with most of the ideas you guys are expressing it is getting lost in the delivery.

My friend gets very passionate about these things, but the only things I have said with anything approaching anger were asking people to cut out the personal attacks and focus instead on discussing the merits of the particular arguments.

 

[Rescue Diver68]

" My friend gets very passionate about these things, but the only things I have said with anything approaching anger were asking people to cut out the personal attacks and focus instead on discussing the merits of the particular arguments."


The merits have been discussed ad nauseam. Your friend should have been passionate enough to read all of the posts in this thread which he admittedly did not do.

 

[gsk3]

The merits have been discussed ad nauseum. Your friend should have been passionate enough to read all of the posts in this thread as he admittedly did not do.

That's not a justification for going personal.

 

[RJP]

That's not a justification for going personal.

 

[gsk3]

You win. That's my favorite