Pony Bottles on NJ Charters?

[Rescue Diver68]

That's not a justification for going personal.

I'm don't think that questioning whether someone is qualified to have an opinion qualifies as a personal attack.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Oh Dumpster Diver, you sure have a strong opinion for someone with only a few thousand dives

If you would just listen to these two with less than a hundred dive experiences between the two of them you may learn something and improve your dive skills.

That really is not my intent. The board is to exchange ideas. As long as people can defend their choices with logic, I lay low (sorta). Probably these two guys have recerived very good training and have advanced very quickly, especailly compared to typical recreational divers. Possobly they have been presented with a pretty narrow point of view. The optimal gear configuration may seem very different from the vantage point of a puking diving clinging to the bow of a pitching boat versus two guys casually suiting up with doubles on picnic table at the edge of a very clear quarry.

There is just no substitute for experience when it comes to some of these issues. Possibly they will eventually learn that:

Diving from a boat in New Jersey IS more dangerous and challenging than diving in many (most) other places.

That the buddy system, as practiced by the recreational community, has some pretty big weaknesses because it, all too often, relies soley upon the competance of a poorly trained buddy.

 

[gsk3]

That the buddy system, as practiced by the recreational community, has some pretty big weaknesses because it, all too often, relies soley upon the competance of a poorly trained buddy.

The thread was started asking why redundant air sources are required for everyone, even those who choose not to buddy dive in a way that exhibits the flaws you have pointed out (which, as noted, I entirely agree with are very common). The question was not about why most people need one, it was about why those who demonstrate serious attention to the awareness and equipment necessary to minimize that risk can't dive the way they want. The answer is, it's their boat and they can do whatever they want on it. The answer was also, once they get to know you, most boats would be fine with it as long as you're safe. But of course, we stopped arguing about that a long time ago.

I'm don't think that questioning whether someone is qualified to have an opinion qualifies as a personal attack.

At the risk of getting dictionaryish:
Ad Hominem
"The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments.

Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument."

The personal attack based on a faulty reading of both of our experience ranges is specifically being used to invalidate the argument.

Ok, I'm done defending a friend's honor now.

I think we all come somewhere close to agreeing that boats can do whatever the heck they like, that for many people buddy separation is common, that training and attention and bright lights can help mitigate that risk, and that under some circumstances it is sane to not dive without a redundant air supply.

As for pony vs. slung bottle vs. doubles, I honestly don't give a hoot as I've said. I have my own preferences, but I think they all basically work. Others may not necessarily agree on this point :cool2:

 

[Rescue Diver68]

[/QUOTE]
"At the risk of getting dictionaryish:
Ad Hominem
"The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments.

Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument."

The personal attack based on a faulty reading of both of our experience ranges is specifically being used to invalidate the argument.

[/QUOTE]

I think calling you "dull" for your dictionary reference is probably more of a personal attack

 

[gsk3]

I think calling you "dull" for your dictionary reference is probably more of a personal attack

Haha. You have no idea. You should see what I do for my day job! :shocked2:

 

[Rescue Diver68]

That really is not my intent. The board is to exchange ideas. As long as people can defend their choices with logic, I lay low (sorta). Probably these two guys have recerived very good training and have advanced very quickly, especailly compared to typical recreational divers. Possobly they have been presented with a pretty narrow point of view. The optimal gear configuration may seem very different from the vantage point of a puking diving clinging to the bow of a pitching boat versus two guys casually suiting up with doubles on picnic table at the edge of a very clear quarry.

There is just no substitute for experience when it comes to some of these issues. Possibly they will eventually learn that:

Diving from a boat in New Jersey IS more dangerous and challenging than diving in many (most) other places.

That the buddy system, as practiced by the recreational community, has some pretty big weaknesses because it, all too often, relies soley upon the competance of a poorly trained buddy.

Sorry if you missed the sarcasm in my prior post. There wasn't a gif handy to express the point of total agreement with you.

 

[Rescue Diver68]

Haha. You have no idea. You should see what I do for my day job! :shocked2:

I think it is very nice of you to defend your friend who is seemingly too busy to join the reindeer games this evening. He's probably on e-bay bidding on a sidemount pony set-up.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

First let me start by restating my first post
"From what I understand, this is a requirement that is unique to jersey boats. Surely the jersey coast doesn't have THE WORST conditions ever. IMO its a silly requirement implemented to try and make up for a lack of real dive preparation, gas planning and management, skill, and buddy/situational awareness."

My point here is merely that the requirement is stupid, and is an inappropriate fix for a problem that may or may not exist. I just think that adding a few cuft of gas and not planning for a loss of gas, which is kind of what dive boats are requiring of the typical AOW student ( i know cause i was almost one) is fruitless, and just hurts divers that are prepared. If you actually plan your dive by calculating for losses then I respect that. I dont like a pony that isnt slung, but that is my opinion and preference. This was not meant to actually be a critique of "pony" usage. Everyone always makes such a stink about "leave me alone to dive the way I want." Fine, then let me on the boat with proof of AOW or OW and let me dive WITH MY BUDDIES the way I WANT. K?

So let me get this straight? Pony bottles are for divers who are unskilled and uncapable of planning a dive but hey if your going to use one anyway sling it? Let split this thread in to a fundies debate, that should be fun.

Ahhh retorting to another post that doesnt address the topic. Mind you, I didnt mention fundamentals; thanks for checking out my profile instead of formulating a decent argument though

I can get to the valve on my main tank. Not super easy but I can.

Why have another tank? Redundancy.
[edited]
Different strokes for different folks. Maybe you have some type of deep seated resentment against ponies and that's fine, but if used properly they can easily get the job done.

Thanks. It was nice to see someone actually argue the point. We can disagree, but at least it wasnt just "you havent done enough diving to know how to dive."

Don't take this the wrong way but you ScubaFeenD have'nt been exposed to enough variety of diving to have a opinion on what is best for anyone but yourself.You have taken some courses which teach you there is only one way to dive with certain equipment,because that is what you've been taught does'nt make what any one else is doing wrong.Just my 2 cents, Just Go Diving and try to have some fun!

Agreed. I stated I think ponies are unecessary, and I really dont care how OTHERS chose to dive. Again, this started with me stating that the RULE for "redundancy" is dumb IMO.

You make a lot of assumption. Perhaps you have been taught by some very good divers, but to assume they are better than the people on this thread would be .... another unsubstantiated assumption.

true

the fact that you beleive that a back mounted pony bottle is inaccesible is evidence of ignorance, maybe not stupidity, but certainly a lack of exposure or even a total lack of self directed critical thinking. Possibly this issue alone will allow you to be a little more open minded about some of these related issues.

I have done thousands of pony dives over the last 30 years and i have never had to turn the valve on my back mounted pony. As was mentioned, if that is a concern then it can EASILY be addressed by mounting the gear in a particular manner.

and how often do you USE your pony. Surely the number of times you have to do something hasnt really caused you to rethink your methods

You supposition that a 40 or even an 80 tank is necesary for redundancy is also indicative of being a little out of touch with normal considerations in recreational diving.

what are the normal considerations, that a 30cuft PONY strapped to my backgas is better?

Now if you want me to convince you that a back mounted pony is better than a slung stage bottle, well I probably can not. The stage bottle in front and easily manipulatable is clearly a safer configuration and leaves the diver more options in certain emergency situations. my normal dive buddy wears his like that. However, I do not.

thank you for admitting this. personal preference, fine.

I prefer back mounted for simplicity and primarily because it does not get in my way when i am spearfsihing or catching lobsters. Also, when i DO carry a stage bottle of oxygen (and spearfish) the last thing i need is TWO bottles banging around in front.

umm ok, i get the doesnt get in the way argument, but I have never had two bottle clanging when i have slung two. seems experience with it might help, huh?

Some of these issues come down to convienence, personal preference, desire for streamlined configuration and of course risk tolerance. Some of us happily accept a higher risk in exchange for a simpler cleaner configuration. As long as the person has critically evaluated these considerations and makes those decisions based on fact (rather than what they accept from some scuba god) I see no problem with it.

So your assumption is that I havent thought about it, but just do what i am told by some un named scuba god. If so, you are mistaken.

You seem also to be making a HUGE assumption that good buddy skills are an acceptable means to mitigate risk (and thus negate the utility of a pony bottle). In my opinion, within the recreational dive community, that it a very serious error in judgement. Recreational divers are very frequently getting split up, especially in dirty NJ shipwreck diving.. Certainly buddy separation is more likely than the need for a diver to turn the valve on the back mounted pony bottle.

well if you get split up perhaps you should focus more on buddy skills and less on whatever else you are doing. I do believe that buddies are a form of redundancy, and since I always make sure to calulate my gas consumption and the amount of gas I will need to get to the surface, during my dive planning, I feel very confident that I will make it to the surface even if it is with my SMB signaling I need help.

If you had a few dozen years of experience to draw upon, maybe these conclusions will be as obvious to you as they are to me.

Remember, the goal of scuba is not to be as safe as possible or we would all be diving no deeper that 20 feet and less than 500 yards from shore.

Oh god, stop with the experience stuff. You argued here based on your logic, and it was really going well until this. Since neither of us are in the water, and number of dives means jack ****, the only thing we have is our ability to argue and defend our points. Get over it.

Also, my goal is to make it back alive from every dive. Dying on a dive would really put a cramp in doing more diving, and it is never in my dive plan.

Oh Dumpster Diver, you sure have a strong opinion for someone with only a few thousand dives

If you would just listen to these two with less than a hundred dive experiences between the two of them you may learn something and improve your dive skills.

Wow, still not posting anything of substance.

You are correct it shouldn't happen but it does. I saw the proof of that yesterday on a charter. As for the Scuba God question I have to agree with dumpster on this one. ScubaFeend made a comment with a huge assumption in it. I know the almost certainly know the individuals who trained him. They are great drivers with tons of experience and very good skills. They also have done very little NE diving lately. They are extremely skilled divers but not the end all be all of NE diving. You are both coming very close to coming across as GUE zealots something that your mentors work very hard to avoid. The sad fact is even while I agree with most of the ideas you guys are expressing it is getting lost in the delivery.

Well, i did make assumptions, but the correct response is to ask for clarification instead of attacking me and implying that I dont know jack. Thank you for your very calm reasoned responses though.

However, I have not mentioned ANY agency or training methodology here except for team diving--i believe heavily in the buddy system. And while I think the instructors I have had the privilege to learn with are some of the best in the world, my comments are certainly independent of them. So think poorly of me if you must, not them. Im pretty sure if you threw them in the atlantic ocean they wouldnt have trouble at all though. An based on the scale of grading on this thread, and apparently in jersey, they are unquestionable in their experience.

I'm don't think that questioning whether someone is qualified to have an opinion qualifies as a personal attack.

not qualified to have an opinion? based on number of dives? you MUST BE JOKING, or maybe you went around an verified everyones SB profile for accuracy and concminant skill.

There is just no substitute for experience when it comes to some of these issues. Possibly they will eventually learn that:

Diving from a boat in New Jersey IS more dangerous and challenging than diving in many (most) other places.

That the buddy system, as practiced by the recreational community, has some pretty big weaknesses because it, all too often, relies soley upon the competance of a poorly trained buddy.

I think you are wrong here. Jersey diving may be challenging, but to claim that is is possibly the hardest conditions is ridiculous. How about the PNW, or NC, or Antartica, or the waters off Britain? I suppose you have sampled EVERY dive site on earth to make that claim, since experience is paramount to you.

I agree that insta buddies are worthless, and its prob better to jsut solo dive and be trained and aware of the risks, but the buddies I dive with I have trained with and I dive with as often as posible. I have no problem trusting them with my life.

I think it is very nice of you to defend your friend who is seemingly too busy to join the reindeer games this evening. He's probably on e-bay bidding on a sidemount pony set-up.

gsk3 is an awesome diver, and I really appreciate his input here. We disagree on some topics, but I would dive with him any day in any condition. You on the other seem to have nothing more to contribute to this forum than silly conjecture, sarcasm, and underhanded insults. Why are you so afraid of a reasoned argument? Is it because you are afraid you are wielding such VAST experiential knowledge that I will pass out in shock and awe? Or, perhaps you have posted it before and dont want to rewrite, in which case you can even cut and paste? Or, maybe you just have such a closed mind new ideas and approaches scare you--i know its hard to break with long term habits and long term belief structures.

Anyway, I have enjoyed the discussion with the few that actually partook in it, and I look forward to more reasoned discussion with other members of sb either on this topic or others.

 

[RJP]

First let me start by restating my first post
"From what I understand, this is a requirement that is unique to jersey boats. Surely the jersey coast doesn't have THE WORST conditions ever. IMO its a silly requirement implemented to try and make up for a lack of real dive preparation, gas planning and management, skill, and buddy/situational awareness."

My point here is merely that the requirement is stupid, and is an inappropriate fix for a problem that may or may not exist. I just think that adding a few cuft of gas and not planning for a loss of gas, which is kind of what dive boats are requiring of the typical AOW student ( i know cause i was almost one) is fruitless, and just hurts divers that are prepared. If you actually plan your dive by calculating for losses then I respect that. I dont like a pony that isnt slung, but that is my opinion and preference. This was not meant to actually be a critique of "pony" usage. Everyone always makes such a stink about "leave me alone to dive the way I want." Fine, then let me on the boat with proof of AOW or OW and let me dive WITH MY BUDDIES the way I WANT. K?



Ahhh retorting to another post that doesnt address the topic. Mind you, I didnt mention fundamentals; thanks for checking out my profile instead of formulating a decent argument though



Thanks. It was nice to see someone actually argue the point. We can disagree, but at least it wasnt just "you havent done enough diving to know how to dive."



Agreed. I stated I think ponies are unecessary, and I really dont care how OTHERS chose to dive. Again, this started with me stating that the RULE for "redundancy" is dumb IMO.



true



and how often do you USE your pony. Surely the number of times you have to do something hasnt really caused you to rethink your methods



what are the normal considerations, that a 30cuft PONY strapped to my backgas is better?



thank you for admitting this. personal preference, fine.



umm ok, i get the doesnt get in the way argument, but I have never had two bottle clanging when i have slung two. seems experience with it might help, huh?



So your assumption is that I havent thought about it, but just do what i am told by some un named scuba god. If so, you are mistaken.



well if you get split up perhaps you should focus more on buddy skills and less on whatever else you are doing. I do believe that buddies are a form of redundancy, and since I always make sure to calulate my gas consumption and the amount of gas I will need to get to the surface, during my dive planning, I feel very confident that I will make it to the surface even if it is with my SMB signaling I need help.



Oh god, stop with the experience stuff. You argued here based on your logic, and it was really going well until this. Since neither of us are in the water, and number of dives means jack ****, the only thing we have is our ability to argue and defend our points. Get over it.

Also, my goal is to make it back alive from every dive. Dying on a dive would really put a cramp in doing more diving, and it is never in my dive plan.



Wow, still not posting anything of substance.



Well, i did make assumptions, but the correct response is to ask for clarification instead of attacking me and implying that I dont know jack. Thank you for your very calm reasoned responses though.

However, I have not mentioned ANY agency or training methodology here except for team diving--i believe heavily in the buddy system. And while I think the instructors I have had the privilege to learn with are some of the best in the world, my comments are certainly independent of them. So think poorly of me if you must, not them. Im pretty sure if you threw them in the atlantic ocean they wouldnt have trouble at all though. An based on the scale of grading on this thread, and apparently in jersey, they are unquestionable in their experience.



not qualified to have an opinion? based on number of dives? you MUST BE JOKING, or maybe you went around an verified everyones SB profile for accuracy and concminant skill.



I think you are wrong here. Jersey diving may be challenging, but to claim that is is possibly the hardest conditions is ridiculous. How about the PNW, or NC, or Antartica, or the waters off Britain? I suppose you have sampled EVERY dive site on earth to make that claim, since experience is paramount to you.

I agree that insta buddies are worthless, and its prob better to jsut solo dive and be trained and aware of the risks, but the buddies I dive with I have trained with and I dive with as often as posible. I have no problem trusting them with my life.



gsk3 is an awesome diver, and I really appreciate his input here. We disagree on some topics, but I would dive with him any day in any condition. You on the other seem to have nothing more to contribute to this forum than silly conjecture, sarcasm, and underhanded insults. Why are you so afraid of a reasoned argument? Is it because you are afraid you are wielding such VAST experiential knowledge that I will pass out in shock and awe? Or, perhaps you have posted it before and dont want to rewrite, in which case you can even cut and paste? Or, maybe you just have such a closed mind new ideas and approaches scare you--i know its hard to break with long term habits and long term belief structures.

Anyway, I have enjoyed the discussion with the few that actually partook in it, and I look forward to more reasoned discussion with other members of sb either on this topic or others.

The diver doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

The diver doth protest too much, methinks.

I just wanted to be thorough in my responses. I think everyone deserves that.