Pony bottle 19 vs 30 cf, and clipped on left side of BP/W ?

[Fastmarc]

The problem I see is if they are crazed and panicked it will be difficult to attach a pony to them, get them to give back your reg and take the pony's reg. Even if you are very experienced in rescue it sounds like it would be a dangerous situation to try for you.

 

[Searcaigh]

Slightly off topic: if you carry a pony, do you still need the octopus reg or would the pony reg be donated in an ooa situation?
Thanks

Personally I don't have an octopus on my back gas using a single tank. The pony would be handed off to an OOG diver once stabilised on my long hose reg (whilst I breath from the pony initially), then start the ascent.

This is a personal choice.

 

[doctormike]

The problem I see is if they are crazed and panicked it will be difficult to attach a pony to them, get them to give back your reg and take the pony's reg. Even if you are very experienced in rescue it sounds like it would be a dangerous situation to try for you.

Yup. And in that case, you would just stay on the pony, let them stay on your backgas and ascend. I wouldn't try to attach the pony to them until they were breathing on it.

Like I said, options.

 

[johndiver999]

Sure. Like most diving procedures, there are tradeoffs, and you can always come up with scenarios that favor one or the other. And the decision on how to ascend would be based on a number of things, such as the specifics of who the OOA diver was, what their experience, training, and assessed mental state were at the time of rescue.

However, you are assuming that I was suggesting just handing off the bottle and leaving. I didn't say that. I just meant that if you are ascending it's better if you are on your own back gas.

There is nothing to prevent you from ascending with the OOA diver and doing all of the things that you mention, but a regulator isn't a good means of keeping two divers together. If the OOA diver is breathing off the pony, then no matter what happens he will have gas. If he is breathing off of your short primary hose, then there is a chance that you could get separated (surge, current, panic) and then he would have NO gas. Which is always going to be worse than any of your scenarios.

Finally, there is the possibility that he will become SO panicked that he will put you as the rescuer in danger. And in that case, it might be good to be able to break free without depriving him of his gas supply.

If I was diving OC and had to rescue an OOA diver with only one second stage and one pony bottle, I would do this:

1) Plug my primary into the OOA diver immediately.

2) Deploy my pony and breathe off of that.

3) Once the situation was stabilized, try to get the OOA diver to take the pony regulator

4) Unclip the pony and clip it on to one if his D-rings

5) Make a slow, safe ascent together with a safety stop as planned.

If you hand him a pony and he drops it or looses it then he will not always have gas. I think we have covered several scenarios pretty well.

Personally, I will plan on giving them a reg and starting the ascent ASAP and doing as little as possible on the ascent. The task loading and stress of switching regulators is not something I want to add to the required tasks of managing buoyancy, managing an ascent rate, maintaining contact and certainly unclipping a stage bottle and then trying to clip to another bc is something I would not plan to do in an emergency.

 

[doctormike]

If you hand him a pony and he drops it or looses it then he will not always have gas. I think we have covered several scenarios pretty well.

That's why you clip it off.

Personally, I will plan on giving them a reg and starting the ascent ASAP and doing as little as possible on the ascent. The task loading and stress of switching regulators is not something I want to add to the required tasks of managing buoyancy, managing an ascent rate, maintaining contact and certainly unclipping a stage bottle and then trying to clip to another bc is something I would not plan to do in an emergency.

Yeah, I don't think that you get what I am suggesting. You don't start your ascent until your gas is squared away.

If for some reason you are donating gas to someone who is still too panicked to follow directions, even after breathing from a working gas source, then I guess you just ascend as is and make the best of it. But if you are breathing from a pony, and the OOA diver is breathing from your short hose primary, then I think that it would make more sense to give him the pony, clip it off to him, and ascend together. Two divers ascending linked by a short hose can become separated just as easily as you can drop a pony, especially if one is panicked.

What's the rush to ascend? You now both have working gas sources with more than enough gas to let you get organized and make a standard, slow, safe ascent.

 

[johndiver999]

That's why you clip it off.



Yeah, I don't think that you get what I am suggesting. You don't start your ascent until your gas is squared away.

If for some reason you are donating gas to someone who is still too panicked to follow directions, even after breathing from a working gas source, then I guess you just ascend as is and make the best of it. But if you are breathing from a pony, and the OOA diver is breathing from your short hose primary, then I think that it would make more sense to give him the pony, clip it off to him, and ascend together. Two divers ascending linked by a short hose can become separated just as easily as you can drop a pony, especially if one is panicked.

What's the rush to ascend? You now both have working gas sources with more than enough gas to let you get organized and make a standard, slow, safe ascent.

If I am holding onto the victim, then I disagree with you. It is much easier for a victim to drop something than for the rescuer to lose a grip on the victim.

And why the urgency to ascend? Because it is an emergency and the sooner you begin moving, the better the victim is going to feel and to be honest, the safer I would feel. I'm not suggesting an excessively fast ascent is desirable, but an immediate one would be. Anything that slows, delays or complicates the ascent is something that I would plan to avoid and that would include a negotiation process of requesting to switch regulators. Simplicity is my plan.

If you think a short primary hose is a problem, then maybe it is worth the trouble to switch regulators.

 

[doctormike]

If I am holding onto the victim, then I disagree with you. It is much easier for a victim to drop something than for the rescuer to lose a grip on the victim.

And why the urgency to ascend? Because it is an emergency and the sooner you begin moving, the better the victim is going to feel and to be honest, the safer I would feel. I'm not suggesting an excessively fast ascent is desirable, but an immediate one would be. Anything that slows, delays or complicates the ascent is something that I would plan to avoid and that would include a negotiation process of requesting to switch regulators. Simplicity is my plan.

If you think a short primary hose is a problem, then maybe it is worth the trouble to switch regulators.

OK, you are probably right.

 

[J-Vo]

In my opinion, once everyone is breathing and neutral the emergency is over. It may be time to end the dive normally, but still considering it an emergency will lead to unsafe out of control ascents.

 

[Bob DBF]

In my opinion, once everyone is breathing and neutral the emergency is over. It may be time to end the dive normally, but still considering it an emergency will lead to unsafe out of control ascents.

I don't believe the emergency is completely over until both divers are on the surface and positively buoyant. Breathing and neutral at depth is a good thing, and is a great way to begin a controlled ascent. The issue, as I see it, OOA diver is on my gas and has no way to add air to his BC without removing the reg from his mouth and may be on the edge of panic, this is not my dive plan and the safest place for everyone is on the surface positively buoyant.

A lot has been written on the board about the incident pit and how it may be small issues that if ignored turn into a greater emergency. Believing that an emergency is over because the main casulty is stabilized, ignoring the vulnerable state you are in, to me, seems another step into the incident pit.

If I rescue someone, I want them to stay rescued.


Bob

 

[Bierstadt]

Agreed. If I am rescuing an OOA diver what I really want them to do is not a darn thing until we reach the surface. The fact that they needed rescued in the first place doesn't make me want to see them fiddle with their bcd. While we are attached at the hip, more or less. No thank you.