Polish cave diver critical - Marcilhac-sur-Célé, France

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

"It is alleged that Robert has recently 'changed the diving equipment (meaning the Rebreather model),' that he was rushed through the training on the new model by the instructor 'to hasten the sale' and that half of the instruction's manual pages passed on to him by the said instructor were missing/could not be read (not sure which suits better here)".

From what I gather, a crossover course is straight forward. Most CCR divers research their choice of Rebreather before committing. CCR manuals are available on the company website. And I'm sure the deceased would have completed his own evaluation that everything was working before he set out on a solo dive.
 
An ADV is an automatic diluent valve which is already mentioned here. It is more or less a sort of second stage that opens if the counterlungs are emtpy (vacuum), so the diver can breathe. The adv will let diluent in the lungs if you go down. Extra diluent in the lungs can also be done with a mav (manual add valve). In a rebreather course is also teached that you dive with adv, so you can only use the mav.
I read about a bailout with 10/70 trimix, so a real hypoxic mix. But even that in a loop at 350-450m in the Ressel (that is the distance you can reach in 5-7 minutes) means a depth of 20-47m, and at 20m depth, the mix is breathable if this is also the diluent. But you have to add oxygen to get the 'normal' PO2 of 0.7 (or maybe the 1.1-1.3 that is more used).
Hypoxic is possible if the oxygen is closed. But then you did not check your handset and/or hud.

If the diver dives a 10/70 mix, this means he must have a mod3/full trimix ccr card. That he started ccr diving 1 year ago does not say he cannot have done this courses. He also had done oc cave dives.

For me, the most worrying part is that his ccr has been repaired several times. Is that a design flaw? But the 'at least 10 events like this', where is that found?
I don't dive a treb, but dive a sidemount mccr, a Sidekick and know the divesite quite well.
I thought the ADV is a solenoid, like in a washing machine.
 
Not being pestered and an introduction of a 5 min no talking rule whilst gearing up would be helpful
Not including any prebreathe if that's what you do
Isn't this the reason a pre-dive checklist is mandatory for CCR divers using a new CCR?
 
I read in other comments on fb that he was not found in the cave, but only at 7m depth. That means the entrance. So the 5-7 minutes divetime I read somewhere are then strange.
If the accident was not medical and avoidable, we can only learn what is already written: follow a strict checklist, check your handset, check the flow of gasses before a dive, etc.
And at the start of a dive (and of course always during the dive), expecially when you dive mCCR and a hypoxic diluent: know your PO2. In every ccr course is teached: always know your PO2.

It is a sad story.

Sometimes you would be happy with an Inspiration with HUD and an irritating buzzer and auto-on if you hit the water.

But if people think about ccr, think about some options:
-The HUD, heads up display is an optional tool with leds that shows you near your eye if the PO2 is ok or not. It is optional, you can dive without. But if something happens, you see the HUD most times first. My Sidekick does not have one. I don't miss it there. But my Inspiration has one and also the other ccr's I have dived. If you are new to ccr, think about the advantages of an HUD.
-The ADV, the automatic diluent valve. This is a sort of second stage that adds gas (diluent) automatically when your counterlungs are empty if you want to breathe in when going down. Like you have to pump gas in your bcd, you have to fill your counterlungs. Not all ccr's have an ADV (like for example the Manta lungs from Megalodon), and you can also buy the Inspiration without ADV. In every course you must learn to deal with a ccr without ADV. I will not buy one without. It is such an easy tool and makes your ccr life easier.
-The MAV. Manual Add Valve. Every ccr has normally mav's to add diluent and oxygen. You must be able to maintain PO2 and lungvolume with your mav's. On my sidekick I had first only an option to add diluentgas by manually pushing the adv. I could/can switch to other diluents by connecting other gases on the adv hose. On one dive when I went down to 47m, the ADV refused to work when I hit the 30m depth and was going deeper. I had to go to OC bailout and then found out the ADV was not working and I could not fix it during that (cave)dive. So I could only add diluent gas in the lung by blowing it over the mouthpiece into the lungs. For oxygen I had a mav. Now I have both oxy and dil over a Revo switchblock. The main is still the adv that works as mav. But I have now a second option when needed. You can dive without ADV, but not without mav's. I changed my configuration easier to add offboard gases.
-CO2 sensors. That is or not available on ccr's, or most times an optional thing. Sadly there are still problems with CO2 sensors and sometimes they work well, sometimes not. The Tempstik on the Inspiration or rms from revo works very well, it is not CO2 sensor, but measures the temperature of the scrubber. I don't have an CO2 sensor on my Inspiration, but have a Tempstik. It is an good investment, but the risk is that the Tempstik shows you can dive and in reality you get CO2 problems. So here again, use your brains.
-mCCR vs eCCR. I have both. Both have pros and cons. If you dive mCCR, you must regulate your personal oxygen need by changing the intermediatepressure of the first stage. Also the size of the orifice is important. Diving over 80-100m depth can be a problem with mccr due to the orifice/leaky valve. eCCR can make lazy divers. If the unit works, it will maintain a breathable PO2. But even here, always know your PO2, check your handset often, even if you have a HUD. And every eCCR diver must know how to handle the unit in mCCR mode.
-DSV (normal ccr mouthpiece, dive surface valve) vs OCB (open circuit bailoutvalve).With an ocb you can easy switch to your diluent by holding the same mouthpiece in your mouth. It will help in case of a CO2 hit. But if you have connected it to a 3 liter bottle it will not really help you at 100m depth. Also the mouthpiece is bigger and I don't like it, too heavy when scootering. Some people have an ocb to not take offboard bailout with them on shallow dives. Oh yes, a 3 liter will bring you up in open water from 10m depth if the cylinder is full. And the next dive you start with 150 bar to 15m, it still will bring you up. And then it will be a 20m dive and just 80 bars in the diluent before the dive. Then **** hits the fan and the 3 liter cylinder will not help you anymore. So if you have an ocb and do easy shallow dives, don't become lazy and even then take enough bo with you.

If I wanted to do the 'big 8' (deep loop) in the Resselcave I would prefer my Inspiration over my Sidekick. This has to do that scootering, manually maintain the right PO2 (at Puits 4 there is a risk it becomes too high if I don't close the leaky valve for a while when I go down, then I need to open it again when I am down, of course a right choice of diluent would prevent it also), and sidemount (you loose 1 stage/bailout position) makes it more complex than just taking a backmount CCR. Of course I can do that dive also on sidemount ccr.
Hi
I completely agree with you but for the ADV part with hypo mixes on mccr.
Indeed, I prefer to have the ADV off or removed (one of my unit is also a SK and I removed the white plastic "paddel") as this way, it is easy to realise if the dil or the oxy is close.
Indeed, with no ADV or ADV closed, if at the beginning of the dive, both tanks are closed, you know it quickly as you cannot breath :).
With an ADV opened, if at the beginning of the dive, the oxy is closed, you will still get a gas injection allowing you to breathe and if this gas is hypo, well, at (or near) the surface, you got no chance.
That might have been the factor in Robert accident as it seems a lot of people are talking about "forgetting to open the oxy" and it seems to me that we have a situation of "too fast progression"...
Yes, an ADV makes life easier when we only have two hands and no ADV might be a problem scootering down as you might need to slow down to inject DIL but we also need to inject gas in the DS and if the DIL mav is placed near the DS injection, it is just a question of habit and frankly, I prefer to slow down... the cave will be there tomorrow...
As going down in the "puits 4" or whatever "puits", as we are not in unknown place (thanks to all these people who took the risks of exploring all the caves), it is just about a pp02 adjustement to do before going down and then avoiding closing the oxy. But of course YMMV and the main point is to be really aware of the whys we are doing what we are doing.
Unfortunately, it seems Robert had not this awareness...
 
Have no idea but given the lack of training for gases and the dive in general it seems like he could have tried various unconventional things that you or I would not have tried. Maybe he scootered to the entrance not using the t-reb? Or maybe it was still full of O2 from his calibration and he used it up on the surface, then his ADV fired as he descended, his ppO2 dropped at 2-3m where he lost consciousness and he sank down to 7m?
In any case it sure seems like his O2 was probably off.
Yes indeed. It seems to me to be the case: ADV filling the reb with hypo gas.
They may have found him just at the entrance of the cave as it is near 6-7 meters at the bottom of a slope from the river bed.
 
I thought the ADV is a solenoid, like in a washing machine.
The ADV is, as Germie has nicely explained, not a solenoid, it is just more or less a second stage regulator: a mechanical device.
Solenoid is an electronic system used in eCCR (or washing machine :)) based on a ppo2 reading to inject oxy (not on a washing machine for this last part :) :)).
I think (but really not sure about that one :)) that the Poseidon and the new Mares scr have a solenoid to inject diluant.
 
I thought the ADV is a solenoid, like in a washing machine.
No, an ADV is more or less a second stage, no electricity needed like your own second stage. If you create a vacuum, it opens. So does the ADV.
The solenoid is an electric magnetic defice. It is controlled by a computer to open or close.

Revo has also a hCCR system, hybride and that means it has and an orifice/leaky valve and an solenoid.

The ocb is often also called a BOV. I forgot to mention this.

Poseidon has a complete different system to measure oxygen and calibrate sensors. Most units use 'voting logic' (with for example 3 sensors, the 2 nearest are the 'real' ones and the 3rd is 'voted out', also something to think about if 2 sensors are faulty), but Poseidon has only 2, 1 is measuring and 1 as backup. During a dive, the machine itself calibrates and checks the cells with the diluent. The machine calibrates at surface automatically by using the oxygen and the diluent. The Poseidon HAS 4 SOLENOIDS, 2 for oxy, 2 for dil. 1 of the dil is used to calibrate the cells. Also the solenoids are used for the automatic positive test that is done by the machine. During prebreathe also the solenoids dil and oxy are used to test the system. The reason Poseidon checks the flows during prebreathe is that the diver will know if a cylinder is closed. Further, I have to say that I don't know all details of the Poseidon ccr as it has been a long time ago that I did the cross over and since then never dived the unit again.
For most ccr's it is easier because they work more or less the same. But Poseidon tried to make a monkey proof ccr and does a lot of checks automatically because the checklist cannot forgotten. There are a lot of ways the Poseidon refuses to dive (for example with less than 120 bar in cylinders), you would think 120 bars is not full, that is true. BUT, diluent use is only used by depth or jojo diving. If you only go to 30m, you use only your dill once and then 30 bars is enough. Oxygen is only used by metabolism. Normally a diver use 30-40 bars per hour from a 3 liter cylinder. So starting with 100 bar will also not be a problem. You don't use diluent if you are at a constant depth. You only use oxygen then, and I use about 25 bar from a 3 liter per hour, so less than average. A bodybuilder will use more.
Also a diver that uses more oxy will produce more CO2.

The Mares Horizon I don't know, but it is semi closed. You don't use oxygen, but use a higher nitrox. Here a solenoid is used to maintain the FO2 in the loop. This can also done by a leaky valve like Dolphin did. SCR is different from CCR, it is more or less only a gasextender (with dolphin for example a 4 liter cylinder has a duration of about a 12 liter cylinder). Every SCR has a ratio the gas is dropped again (also the RB80 for example is semiclosed, but has no electronics where the Horizon has).

I have on my sidekick on both oxy and dil flowstops. This is done because the ADV sometimes fires too easy and I also have it on the oxy side to close off the orifice, but not needed to close the valve (and let the first stage and hoses become empty with risks of water entry).

Another point to think about if you plan the dive in the Ressel is from 350m back to the entrance: choose a right bailout that SCR, semiclosed is also an option. With a 10% oxygen it is no option. The oxygen is also no option. An ean50 would be an ok gas from the second T back to exit. Breathable oc and usable in SCR. He had at least such a gas with him. But from what I have seen is SCR in caves not trained a lot in Europe. It is a usable method when electronics failed and the scrubber still works and loop not flooded.
 
Hi
I completely agree with you but for the ADV part with hypo mixes on mccr.
Indeed, I prefer to have the ADV off or removed (one of my unit is also a SK and I removed the white plastic "paddel") as this way, it is easy to realise if the dil or the oxy is close.
Indeed, with no ADV or ADV closed, if at the beginning of the dive, both tanks are closed, you know it quickly as you cannot breath :).
With an ADV opened, if at the beginning of the dive, the oxy is closed, you will still get a gas injection allowing you to breathe and if this gas is hypo, well, at (or near) the surface, you got no chance.
That might have been the factor in Robert accident as it seems a lot of people are talking about "forgetting to open the oxy" and it seems to me that we have a situation of "too fast progression"...

And what if you were taught to fill the counter lungs with o2 for positive pressure check (not calibration, that's for "amateurs" with bad ccr-s) and to inhale a bit of air into them before the dive to make the mixture breathable to 9 meters where you start to maintain minimal loop with the (very) hypoxic dill.

Yeah, because that's how those 4 divers died. No adv, no mav-s (no brains), just breath air into your counter lungs and dive until you need to add dill for volume, or pass out because you used up all your oxygen while kiting up on the surface.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom