Polish cave diver critical - Marcilhac-sur-Célé, France

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Miyaru

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...
Interestingly, the critical Team Instructor 2 gives an example of Instructor 2’s training element, where he makes his students pass out on the floor by giving them a hypoxic breathing agent in the loop, so that they can learn how hypoxia can ‘switch you off’ without a warning.
...
Wow. Just wow!

If you decide to deprive yourself of oxygen and experience the effects, that's one thing.
If you deliberately deprive your students of oxygen (considering the fact that an instructor is authoritative to students), it is criminal. Instructors are not anaesthesiologists who have the knowledge to determine the (long-term) effects of hypo-saturation.
 

ginti

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Wow. Just wow!

If you decide to deprive yourself of oxygen and experience the effects, that's one thing.
If you deliberately deprive your students of oxygen (considering the fact that an instructor is authoritative to students), it is criminal. Instructors are not anaesthesiologists who have the knowledge to determine the (long-term) effects of hypo-saturation.

Besides, I personally do not need any test to understand that, underwater, hypoxia can be lethal in a few breaths. For certain things, common sense and experience should be enough. Would you jump from a skyscraper to understand that it can be dangerous?
 

Hiszpan

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Looks like our Polish friends (group 1 and 2) have some unorthodox ways of teaching ccr...
Is it a cultural "thing"?!

Being Polish I am of an opinion that part of the problem indeed is a “cultural thing”, but remember - those instructors and courses run under the umbrella of international diving organizations (PADI, TDI being pertinent to the case discussed.)
Where is the oversight and quality control of the HQ? Are we sure shortcomings identified in this case do not happen in other countries?
 

jale

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Being Polish I am of an opinion that part of the problem indeed is a “cultural thing”, but remember - those instructors and courses run under the umbrella of international diving organizations (PADI, TDI being pertinent to the case discussed.)
Where is the oversight and quality control of the HQ? Are we sure shortcomings identified in this case do not happen in other countries?
Sorry for being a bit not that clear.
The "cultural thing" wasn't related to nation alism but more to a certain type of alpha guys or ex-whatever-I-know-it-all type of guys.
And I agree with you: it can happen everywhere.
 

Ayisha

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it has been clarified now by his first CCR instructor that Robert was crossing over from OC to CCR...

...Team Instructor 1 (the instructor who trained Robert to his first basic CCR qualification) and Team Instructor 2 (the one making earliest remarks about Robert’s poor basic CCR training, lacking basic elements of physics’ understanding)...

If the victim was being trained for the first time on CCR, how did he have 2 separate sets of training and instructors?

For example, how is there a CCR Instructor 1 followed by a CCR Instructor 2 if that was his first course?

Or do you mean that CCR Instructor 2 is a random instructor who is commenting, but did not instruct the victim?
 

dimito

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If the victim was being trained for the first time on CCR, how did he have 2 separate sets of training and instructors?

I read that he first dove an AP and then did the crossover to the side mount rebreather. I think it's in the blog post from the instructor that gave him the crossover.
 

Hiszpan

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If the victim was being trained for the first time on CCR, how did he have 2 separate sets of training and instructors?

For example, how is there a CCR Instructor 1 followed by a CCR Instructor 2 if that was his first course?

Or do you mean that CCR Instructor 2 is a random instructor who is commenting but did not instruct the victim?

Marcin Bramson - Instructor 1 story (CCR instructor who taught Robert his first CCR qualification)


Tomasz Żabierek - Instructor 2 criticising (I do not think he was teaching any CCR to Robert, but because of his early emotional criticism after Robert's death, I assume he was close to Robert. Instructor 1 mentioned 'a friend' of Robert, an instructor who dove with Robert those deep CCR dives that were outwith Robert's basic CCR certification. I do not know if that is Instructor 2. Still, it could explain a criticism lodged by Instructor 2 towards Instructor 1 akin to trying to shift the blame on the fatal outcome from dangerous and irresponsible dives outside of one's qualifications to poor basic CCR training. It is only my conjecture.)

Robert Kozubek - Robert's personal FB page with his last post outlining details of the fatal dive that will be attempted with his selfie pictures.

I hope this will help you to follow the discussion. If I find any offshoot on another FB page, I will try to post.
 

Hiszpan

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Discussions are ongoing, but the core facts seem to be established as:

- Robert was at 7m depth
- his Oxygen was shut off
- his ADV was open and pumping diluent 10/70

The blaming game is focused on the instructor who certified Robert in one day for CCR TMX 40,60 and 100 about two weeks after Robert passed exam for his basic CCR certification and also certified Robert on the Inspiration CCR model but nobody ever seen Robert diving that rebreather. Another instructor who certified Robert as a Cave Instructor just a day before Robert’s passing (allegations are that this instructor agreed to do it for the least amount of money in the shortest time possible taking into the account Robert’s experience in cave diving; the instructor trainer course was happening in the same cave) is also blamed.
Finally Instructor 1 who certified Robert on basic CCR qualification is still being blamed for his incompetence in training based on his webinars of T-Reb training available on the internet. The saga continues...
 

ginti

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Hi @Hiszpan , would you mind translating in English the most important discussions, if you have the time? Thanks! :)
 

lermontov

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can someone clarify the timeline of his qualfications / training please, it seems he was doing hypoxic dives straight after mod1

april may 2020 -theory
end may- first ccr dives ( maybe some sort of pre course dive)
late july -refine skills ( sidedmount skills on ccr)
july 30- august 20 -mod 1

august 1 -95m and 120 m dives appears he did this in between completeing mod 1
sept 1 2020 -mod 2 and 3 plus more deep dives
feb 2021-deep dives
may 8 2021 -hypoxic dives

is that it?
 
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