Polish cave diver critical - Marcilhac-sur-Célé, France

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Hi @Hiszpan, the way you write makes me think that you and Robert were friends. If this is the case, my most sincere condolence - this is a tragedy, and no one would deserve it, no matter the mistakes done.

But I also believe that you are here to try to learn from this accident. In this regard, I think it would be instructive for me to see the post on Facebook, which I couldn't find in my groups. I would be grateful if you could share the link, here or in private. Many thanks.
 
An ADV is an automatic diluent valve which is already mentioned here. It is more or less a sort of second stage that opens if the counterlungs are emtpy (vacuum), so the diver can breathe. The adv will let diluent in the lungs if you go down. Extra diluent in the lungs can also be done with a mav (manual add valve). In a rebreather course is also teached that you dive with adv, so you can only use the mav.
I read about a bailout with 10/70 trimix, so a real hypoxic mix. But even that in a loop at 350-450m in the Ressel (that is the distance you can reach in 5-7 minutes) means a depth of 20-47m, and at 20m depth, the mix is breathable if this is also the diluent. But you have to add oxygen to get the 'normal' PO2 of 0.7 (or maybe the 1.1-1.3 that is more used).
Hypoxic is possible if the oxygen is closed. But then you did not check your handset and/or hud.

If the diver dives a 10/70 mix, this means he must have a mod3/full trimix ccr card. That he started ccr diving 1 year ago does not say he cannot have done this courses. He also had done oc cave dives.

For me, the most worrying part is that his ccr has been repaired several times. Is that a design flaw? But the 'at least 10 events like this', where is that found?
I don't dive a treb, but dive a sidemount mccr, a Sidekick and know the divesite quite well.
 
Hi @Hiszpan, the way you write makes me think that you and Robert were friends. If this is the case, my most sincere condolence - this is a tragedy, and no one would deserve it, no matter the mistakes done.

But I also believe that you are here to try to learn from this accident. In this regard, I think it would be instructive for me to see the post on Facebook, which I couldn't find in my groups. I would be grateful if you could share the link, here or in private. Many thanks.

Hi ginti

You can find all the chatter at Robert’s personal FB page, the discussion seem to developed there as opposed to a diving group pages.

He was not my friend but it is always sad if a life is lost for what seems to be avoidable circumstances.
 
An ADV is an automatic diluent valve which is already mentioned here. It is more or less a sort of second stage that opens if the counterlungs are emtpy (vacuum), so the diver can breathe. The adv will let diluent in the lungs if you go down. Extra diluent in the lungs can also be done with a mav (manual add valve). In a rebreather course is also teached that you dive with adv, so you can only use the mav.
I read about a bailout with 10/70 trimix, so a real hypoxic mix. But even that in a loop at 350-450m in the Ressel (that is the distance you can reach in 5-7 minutes) means a depth of 20-47m, and at 20m depth, the mix is breathable if this is also the diluent. But you have to add oxygen to get the 'normal' PO2 of 0.7 (or maybe the 1.1-1.3 that is more used).
Hypoxic is possible if the oxygen is closed. But then you did not check your handset and/or hud.

If the diver dives a 10/70 mix, this means he must have a mod3/full trimix ccr card. That he started ccr diving 1 year ago does not say he cannot have done this courses. He also had done oc cave dives.

For me, the most worrying part is that his ccr has been repaired several times. Is that a design flaw? But the 'at least 10 events like this', where is that found?
I don't dive a treb, but dive a sidemount mccr, a Sidekick and know the divesite quite well.

Hi Germie

One of the people commenting, who sounds like Robert’s friend who dove with him at times, described those failures and the amount of times it happened.
 
RIP to Robert...
I don't understand how someone can decide to go for the "deep loop" by being such a new RB diver.
This loop is a long and deep dive that must be done with a lot of care and experience with the RB.
This loop doesn't need a SM RB as there is plenty of space or at least a SM RB added to a nice double of BO gas.
People need to take RB step by step. It is not because you can afford to get a new RB and two scooters that it allows you to short cut experience...
 
One of the most prolific reb instructors in Poland had at least 3 of his students die from not opening the o2 bottle and then he was found dead with a closed o2 bottle. I was present on the boat when 3 divers from Poland attempted to jump in the water with closed o2 and dill bottles. When the first faceplanted with 3 stages connected to him they figured out the mistake and still did the dive.
Anyone see a connection here?
 
One of the most prolific reb instructors in Poland had at least 3 of his students die from not opening the o2 bottle and then he was found dead with a closed o2 bottle. I was present on the boat when 3 divers from Poland attempted to jump in the water with closed o2 and dill bottles. When the first faceplanted with 3 stages connected to him they figured out the mistake and still did the dive.
Anyone see a connection here?
So many ****-up?! Crazy...
 
I do not understand a couple of things. Ok, I don't dive a treb, but a Sidekick. I have the oxygen 3 liter on the ccr on my left side. I can open and close it myself. Yes, I had 1 time the oxygen closed when swimming and walking with it at surface. But you see this when you check everything before you start the dive. Same when you forget to open it. Normally I open the valve, do calibrating and close the flow stop on the oxygen side and close the valve (I have a flow stop on the oxygen side as this works faster than closing a valve when needed and before a dive you don't loose oxygen due the leaky valve/orifice). When everything is ready in the water, I open the valve, check the mav and the flowstop, and check PO2 on handset. Even if you start your dive with a PO2 of let's say 0.4, you bring it up with the mav as a check that everything works.
So why won't you see that the oxygenvalve is closed in the first minute of a dive? Check every minute the handset is also not done then.

Entering the water with both ox and dil closed will mean that you cannot dive. When you jump in with everything closed, that is possible when you did not do your checks, but as soon as you go down, the ADV will not work and even the MAV not. So you cannot get gas in the counterlung. Starting a dive will not possible, only with a negative entry, but then you will have done checks at surface.

I think the Treb does not have a hud, but a hud helps for sure to detect PO2 problems. I also don't have a HUD on the Sidekick. But I have it on my inspiration.

Then another thing I do not understand. If you have an accident during a course with a student, you need to fill in forms and the instructor will be 'out', non-active, till there is found the instructor did nothing wrong. So if you made as instructor a big big mistake not to check the oxygen flow of a student and a deadly accident, you will normally already be 'out', expelled, but to make this mistake 3 times sounds strange.

Thinking about what can be learned I come to the routine and checklist.
A big difference I have seen between divers in Florida and in Europe is that ccr divers in Europe most times don't use a checklist. Yes of course they are there, also in Europe. But I have seen divers really use a checklist on paper in Florida and don't see it here. In the inspiration is a checklist in the handset, so you have to confirm you did everything. Revo also has a checklist on a card that you can use when you prepare your unit. I have seen using it in Sardinia. I think such lists will help not to forget things as open valves. But even then, if you have your own procedure and someone interrupt it, you need to check extra. If I dive my ccr, I tell students I need a couple of minutes for myself. Even if I teach. I help them with the unit and then I do my own. Same I saw in Sardinia last summer, the owner of the divecenter was on the same table where we made the diveplan for a 70m dive on oc. My students looked and looked why that diver was only busy with his ccr and did not react. I told them to wait, he need to concentrate on the unit. If you do other things than your routine, failures or mistakes are done. Experienced or not. In the Inspiration there is a risk that a diver thinks: again that list and confirm everything. And during the dive, ****, forgotten. I have seen that, so a checklist is also not that nothing will forgotten anymore, but at least you have confirmed that you did it.
 
something else:
isn't any travel restrictions now in France-Europe? Can a group of people crosses a few borders by land and find accomodation? And are the 2 or 3 filling stations in the area opened (maybe they ve their own compressor)?
 
Yes, there are travelrestrictions. But from some countries you can go.
 

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