Pending changes for certifications required for JDC dives

[scubadada]

So, this started out as an innocent post in the Florida forum, bringing attention to the fact that there would be new certification requirements for doing many of the dives with one of the popular operators in Jupiter.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that the thread went off on one of SBs usual tangents. Simply, it doesn't matter what you think of AOW. It will be required for all dives with JDC, except for 2 tank reef dives, starting April 1. If you don't have AOW, easy, get it or dive with another operator.

 

[inquis]

The problem with AOW is that the only thing is says with any certainty is that they have done one deep dive

The only certainty with regard to "deep" is they went below 60 ft (ignoring the possibility of a standards violation). I don't feel a 61 ft dive gives one a practical appreciation of the issues involved.

That said, from the charter POV, an AOW cert is more objective than a log book and more expedient than an evaluation dive. I originally got my AOW to avoid the hassle described in the OP.

 

[tursiops]

If you don’t mind @tursiops ill speak for myself

Particularly since you’ve most likely intentionally mischaracterized what I’ve posted in this thread

An AOW card means very little in regard to actual dive capability vs OW and dive ops know that too

It’s all about liability mitigation as easily as possible. Particularly in court if necessary

That’s what I’m saying

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. I hope you realize this is not either-or. It is possible for the AOW cert to be useful training and valuable to the diver, and ALSO be an easy way for dive operators to keep their insurance companies happy. In fact, it might even be possible that is why the insurance companies like it, because more often than not it DOES signify a more highly trained and competent diver.

 

[100days-a-year]

I guess next they'll want a " master diver " card to make sure everyone is truly up to task

 

[Skeptic14]

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. I hope you realize this is not either-or. It is possible for the AOW cert to be useful training and valuable to the diver, and ALSO be an easy way for dive operators to keep their insurance companies happy. In fact, it might even be possible that is why the insurance companies like it, because more often than not it DOES signify a more highly trained and competent diver.

Misconstruing what someone else has said definitely doesn't make something true.

You have a different opinion; that's fine.

I guess next they'll want a " master diver " card to make sure everyone is truly up to task

I think it will be interesting to see if this is a regional and more isolated thing or if this trend becomes more wide spread; mainly because there are places where there simply aren't "OW" dives so the impact for such a change would be much bigger than an area like SE FL.

 

[boulderjohn]

I guess next they'll want a " master diver " card to make sure everyone is truly up to task

I realize this was simply meaningless mockery, but it may be instructive to look at it more closely.

The movement toward requiring AOW for some dives has been going on for many years, at least in the USA, as indicated by the 13-year old video I posted recently in this thread. I dive every winter in South Florida (Pompano Beach), and the operators I have used have all required AOW for the deeper NDL dives for as long as I can remember. I have been diving at a lake on private property in New Mexico for well over a dozen years, and they have required a minimum of AOW since before I started diving there.

About 5 years ago I was in the office of an operator making final preparations for a dive to a wreck near Pompano Beach at about 100 feet, and someone showed up with only an OW card. They told him he needed at least AOW for the dive. He said he was actually an assistant instructor, but he only showed the OW card when he dived. They could have looked it up, but their Internet was down, so they could not confirm his certification. They said they had absolute rules under their insurance. In order to do the dive, he had to dive with a DM guiding him.

So this has been going on for quite some time, and it seems to be working for the operators who do this. Why? Because AOW is an easy certification to get, and most people who want to do those dives already have it. The AOW certification satisfies their insurance, and they would only be turning away a minimum number of potential customers. In contrast, something like Master Scuba Diver is a rare certification, so requiring that would be deemed unnecessary, and it would turn away the overwhelming majority of their potential customers and put them out of business.

 

[DAJ]

Several posters in this thread are arguing for doing the AOW deep dive as part of the OW class. That is nonsense.

I would not identify it as nonsense but rather a type of training that was generally acceptable at the time, that time has long since passed. In my initial dive class some 40+ years ago through an SSI instructor, the focus was on diving within your NDL and nothing about depth and gear restrictions based on certification level that we have now. We were taught everything in one class that you now must take multiple classes for today but my class was much longer than the abbreviated OW classes that are offered now. Not arguing the old way was better or worse, just approaching the topic from a different perspective. Times change and while I don’t agree with many of the restrictions put on new divers, like they need a different cert for just about everything, it’s not my call and we go with the current requirements if we intend to use the services of others to facilitate our diving.

 

[Wookie]

I have dealt (as in purchased insurance from) every scuba diving liability insurance company in the USA except DAN, who entered the game as I was leaving. Not one ever required me to request a card UNLESS the dive was a technical dive, and then never for depth, only for gas provided.

I wasn't supposed to supply air for anyone without a OW card. I wasn't supposed to supply helium to anyone without a heliox/trimix card, and I wasn't supply O2 in excess of 40% to anyone without an advanced deco or advanced nitrox card.

It was never based on depth or equipment, only on the gas used. Now, I haven't had liability insurance since 2019, but I'd be willing to wager a small confectionary that there are no insurance requirements placed on the shop that require a card for depth. Especially a recreational shop, as the recreational limit is 130 feet, and they aren't going to drop you deeper than that on purpose anyway.

 

[johndiver999]

If the operator (JDC for example) was really only interested in competence and experience, then they would have a means to look up all their former customers and see their dive history with THEM. If their own records show the individual has survived multiple "Deep" or advanced dives with them in the past, then it would be reasonable to assume they those individuals have sufficient skills to continue the activity.

However, this is not the objective. They want to have an independent and presumably professional and objective means to demonstrate training and competence. The AOW card is apparently sufficient to accomplish this objective. It is not surprising.

And on another note, arguing that AOW is "worthless" may have some validity, but if AOW is inadequate, then OW must be even less worthwhile.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would not identify it as nonsense but rather a type of training that was generally acceptable at the time, that time has long since passed. In my initial dive class some 40+ years ago through an SSI instructor, the focus was on diving within your NDL and nothing about depth and gear restrictions based on certification level that we have now. We were taught everything in one class that you now must take multiple classes for today but my class was much longer than the abbreviated OW classes that are offered now. Not arguing the old way was better or worse, just approaching the topic from a different perspective. Times change and while I don’t agree with many of the restrictions put on new divers, like they need a different cert for just about everything, it’s not my call and we go with the current requirements if we intend to use the services of others to facilitate our diving.

What makes you think that the experience you had was standard for that time period and not just something you got from your individual instructor?

I was certified not too many years after the era you describe, and although I was certified by PADI, before I enrolled in the course I read the SSI OW manual very carefully. I knew the content well before starting the PADI course. The two were nearly identical. There was an old joke back in those days---if PADI produced a new OW manual with a comma error in one of the sentences, it would take two years for that comma error to appear in the new SSI manual.

The modern OW courses being taught today (by PADI, at least) have more content and requirements than when I first got certified.