Pending changes for certifications required for JDC dives

[MichaelMc]

I don't think I will get anything more out of a formal class and another plastic card than I would a single dive with someone I trust.

This isn't about you . It is about the dive boat and their insurance. You can dive all you want from your own boat or shore with OW.

Training and students need modest steps. Training can't, or doesn't want to, put too much on the brand new students.
- OW: breathing and moving underwater safely. Let's not add too much to it.
- AOW: a bit more in water exposure to instruction and certification that they did ok there.
- Deep: more certified in water instruction in the far from surface and maybe narcosis range.

But boats (insurance) want proof of easily-holds-up-in-court more that the minimal instruction for deeper stuff. Thus they want certified AOW or Deep. Not: "I've been diving with my friend for months and we're really good. Let's do a dive on the shore, film it, and you'll see."

It seems fairly straight forward.

 

[Skeptic14]

But boats (insurance) want proof of easily-holds-up-in-court more that the minimal instruction for deeper stuff. Thus they want certified AOW or Deep. Not: "I've been diving with my friend for months and we're really good. Let's do a dive on the shore, film it, and you'll see."

Not quite right; the boats/insurance companies aren't interested in actual evidence someone has had the training and experience to be ready for a dive, they are interested in mitigation of as much liability as possible as easily as possible.

A fresh AOW diver with the 4 additional dives right after OW means little in regard to actual dive ability and experience, but that extra card could mean a lot for the business in regard to liability.

 

[Skeptic14]

So, you feel that no training is needed, of any kind? No calling attention to the rate a which one uses up gas, no mention of narcosis, no mention of the difficulty of a CESA, no mention of color changes, no mention of possible thermoclines? And, of course, AOW is more than just a dive below 60 ft.

Rate of gas usage at depth, narcosis, and performing CESA were all part of my OW training.

 

[tursiops]

Rate of gas usage at depth, narcosis, and performing CESA were all part of my OW training.

You dived deep enough in your OW class to actually experience the increased gas usage, narcosis, and a CESA from 100 ft? When did you do this, which agency, and where?

 

[Skeptic14]

You dived deep enough in your OW class to actually experience the increased gas usage, narcosis, and a CESA from 100 ft? When did you do this, which agency, and where?

The training materials and tests covered the impacts of depth on gas utilization and narcosis, and a CESA from around 25' was performed.

You performed a CESA from 100ft in your AOW class? I'll return the question, which agency?

 

[tursiops]

The training materials and tests covered the impacts of depth on gas utilization and narcosis, and a CESA from around 25' was performed.

You performed a CESA from 100ft in your AOW class? I'll return the question, which agency?

OK, I understand you covered gas and narcosis as a theoretical topic, not with a dive. So does everyone in their OW class. And they usually learn very little from that until they actually experience it, Several posters in this thread are arguing for doing the AOW deep dive as part of the OW class. That is nonsense.

Where did I say I did a CESA from 100 ft in my AOW class?

 

[Skeptic14]

@tursiops Well I surely didn't suggest I'd performed a 100ft CESA in training, so your question about it sounded as if you had and it was something those with just OW training hadn't...

 

[tursiops]

As it stands now, AOW is a pretty meaningless cert, and to use it as a reason to deny someone access to a trip is lame.

And, yet, it seems to be working out pretty well. People learn from it and they get more confident. The only people raging against it are those who do not have it.

 

[tursiops]

Here is the essence of the thread. It started with tarponchik says AOW is useless, and then Cthippo and Skeptic14 piled on.

But AOW certification is completely artificial. The idea that diving below 60 ft requires some special training is ridiculous.

So, you feel that no training is needed, of any kind? No calling attention to the rate a which one uses up gas, no mention of narcosis, no mention of the difficulty of a CESA, no mention of color changes, no mention of possible thermoclines? And, of course, AOW is more than just a dive below 60 ft.

These all were in my basic training.

When he explained further, it turns out it was a semester-long NAUI class -- presumably in a university -- and he do NOT do any dives below 60 mft (per standards) but just talked about it in class.

AOW is about a lot more than one deep dive. There are four other dives, plus the Thinking Like a Diver material. You don't want to go to 130 anyway....do you? Taking a brand new diver on one of their 4 certification dives to the absolute recreational limits with no prior experience with depth? What could possibly go wrong?

Sure, but how much of that is actually useful? I agree Deep is useful, but could be an hour in the classroom and one dive. Navigation is useful. Nitrox would be useful and could be part of initial certification.

The problem with AOW is that the only thing is says with any certainty is that they have done one deep dive and one nav dive and a handful of other things that might be relevant. If they certified with an agency other than PADI they might have the full courses versus the single dive, but again that is more than an overworked boat crew has time to figure out. As it stands now, AOW is a pretty meaningless cert, and to use it as a reason to deny someone access to a trip is lame.

Sure. Why not?

I am not someone for whom hitting a depth because it is a theoretical limit is a big deal, but I recognize 130 as a reasonable limit on air. Call it a self-imposed limit. I mostly dive solo and so I am not going to just go straight for it, but rather creep up on it 10 or so feet at a time. My preference would be to find a trusted friend with deep experience and just go for it to understand how my body will react to the depth and if I am susceptible to narcosis at that depth and what it will feel like and get comfortable there so that I can use all the room within my chosen limits. I don't think I will get anything more out of a formal class and another plastic card than I would a single dive with someone I trust.

So now we are talking about going to 130 in an OW class?

A fresh AOW diver with the 4 additional dives right after OW means little in regard to actual dive ability and experience, but that extra card could mean a lot for the business in regard to liability.

Exactly.

Rate of gas usage at depth, narcosis, and performing CESA were all part of my OW training.

The training materials and tests covered the impacts of depth on gas utilization and narcosis, and a CESA from around 25' was performed.

Again, all the stuff about gas usage and narcosis was theoretical; no experience with in on a diove....which is the point of the AOW deep dive.

 

[Skeptic14]

If you don’t mind @tursiops ill speak for myself

Particularly since you’ve most likely intentionally mischaracterized what I’ve posted in this thread

An AOW card means very little in regard to actual dive capability vs OW and dive ops know that too

It’s all about liability mitigation as easily as possible. Particularly in court if necessary

That’s what I’m saying