Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

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Markmud, many of us who are DM's and instructors are reconsidering our commitment. You can bet on that. Some of us have been victims of witchhunts conducted by competing stores and individuals out for revenge. Action without due process is the name of the game. One must manage documents AND perceptions flawlessly and be prepared to defend vigorously. It is not worth the few dollars we charge for our services.
 
... no greater than 1:1 for minors. ...
Which violates present-day common sense and basic Boy Scout leadership training, which prohibits one-on-one contact between adults and minors. So the Instructor either has to have a certified assistant, or two DSD participants.
 
So all of you that keep saying he broke standards explain something to me; Lets say I'm a super experienced instructor with 10's of thousands of safely lead dives and courses, doing a DSD in 15 feet of 100' visibility calm water in the tropics. I've done a pool session for the class and now I've taken two of the best of the class for a quick openwater dive. During that dive the divers separate, despite my best efforts, and one has a problem.

According to you, I am now in standards violation and if anything happens to either diver, it's my fault and legally I'm on my own.
Not according to me.... according to the instructors' manual. You don't have a duty to give your "best efforts", you have a duty to be able to make immediate physical contact with the participants. SO yes, if they separate, you are in violations of standards. How do you avoid it happening? Going one on one might ("might", not "will") work. I have often done DSD's with two students and held hands with both. If I really have confidence in them, I may just hold a tank valve or BCD strap. If one of the DSD's is doing their 20th dive after years of Bubblemaker's classes and they show great skills, I may even let them be half an arm's length away from me but I would be watching that one 99.9% of the time. And if something happened, I'd expect PADI to back me up because I did not break standards. I also am not so vain as to think I am better at handling the situation than any other instructor so if someone else comes up with a way to not break standards with 3 or 4 divers, more power to them. Seems simple to me. I'm no PADI preacher; I find fault with lots they do but this case isn't one of them IMHO (except as to how they tried to sneak in the settlement and stay on the case)
 
Which violates present-day common sense and basic Boy Scout leadership training, which prohibits one-on-one contact between adults and minors. So the Instructor either has to have a certified assistant, or two DSD participants.

Or be in a visible public area that others can observe. e.g. a pool with others around. Which brings up another point. If the instructor was a volunteer where is the BSA liability coverage in all this?
 
So many things about this litigation don't make sense to me -- quite frankly, just as the TDI letter doesn't make sense to me (except as a marketing ploy prior to DEMA).

I was a criminal defense attorney and know that I, as the attorney, controlled the litigation strategy for my clients. In reality, the ONLY decision a client got to make was whether they pled guilty or not guilty and on that point, I guarantee I had quite a bit of "advice" for them. I've been involved in civil litigation as a party (and observer) and know the attorneys pretty much controlled both the litigation tactics and strategy. I would be shocked if the same was not true in this case (which, quite frankly, is borne out by the sanctions of the trial court).

Everyone WANTS to "blame PADI" for this but, really, was it PADI management who developed the litigation strategy and tactics or the trial counsel (along with PADI's insurance carrier which is undoubtedly paying for the attorneys)? And while "everyone knows" that V & B is "in bed" with PADI, is the actual carrier/re-insurer in the same position? I don't know (and frankly Scarlet....)

The death of these kids was very sad. I don't understand why the instructor did what he did. I'm not sure I understand the trial strategy/tactics. But, I do find this letter to be way over the top and would be honestly shocked when TDI is sued that it doesn't comply with the advice of counsel for its trial strategy and tactics. Blame the attorneys if you wish -- but I really don't think the client has much real control, regardless of who the client might be.
 
. . . . But, I do find this letter to be way over the top and would be honestly shocked when TDI is sued that it doesn't comply with the advice of counsel for its trial strategy and tactics. Blame the attorneys if you wish -- but I really don't think the client has much real control, regardless of who the client might be.

Even if things are as you suggest, I'm not comfortable excusing PADI for the actions of its agents. They (PADI) don't appear to have any problem throwing one of their instructors under the bus when it is in their perceived best interest, if they felt their counsel mis-behaved, that bus is still there.

Beyond that, your proposed standard of "my attorney made me do it" as a blanket excuse doesn't seem a valid substitute for "do the right thing"
 
I also am not so vain as to think I am better at handling the situation than any other instructor so if someone else comes up with a way to not break standards with 3 or 4 divers, more power to them.

EXACTLY! So why have a standard that is impossible to meet in the first place? Except to set instructors up for failure from the get-go.
 
> Notable is PADI’s settlement with the plaintiffs for a reported $800k (see doc 157), leaving them without a “seat at the table” or being the “empty seat” should the case go to trial.


Does this mean that PADI paid the deceased's parents $800K and they're all done now and have no other recourse?

For all the rest of it, is it all finger pointing (by who?) trying to decide "who is to blame"?

If it turns out that the judge agrees that PADI's standards allow for unsafe ratios, what happens?

Can PADI he held responsible because the instructor followed their standards and someone died, even though the standards are plainly insufficient?

What about the instructor? If the instructor planned the dive in a way that plainly did not allow for handling an emergency without leaving one student alone, even if allowed by PADI's insufficient standards, is he at fault?

Note that by my reasoning, lacking the ability to teleport, any ratio more than 1:1 is insufficient to handle an emergency. Maybe other people don't agree?

Thanks!

flots.
 
So many things about this litigation don't make sense to me -- quite frankly, just as the TDI letter doesn't make sense to me (except as a marketing ploy prior to DEMA).

I was a criminal defense attorney and know that I, as the attorney, controlled the litigation strategy for my clients. In reality, the ONLY decision a client got to make was whether they pled guilty or not guilty and on that point, I guarantee I had quite a bit of "advice" for them. I've been involved in civil litigation as a party (and observer) and know the attorneys pretty much controlled both the litigation tactics and strategy. I would be shocked if the same was not true in this case (which, quite frankly, is borne out by the sanctions of the trial court).

Everyone WANTS to "blame PADI" for this but, really, was it PADI management who developed the litigation strategy and tactics or the trial counsel (along with PADI's insurance carrier which is undoubtedly paying for the attorneys)? And while "everyone knows" that V & B is "in bed" with PADI, is the actual carrier/re-insurer in the same position? I don't know (and frankly Scarlet....)

The death of these kids was very sad. I don't understand why the instructor did what he did. I'm not sure I understand the trial strategy/tactics. But, I do find this letter to be way over the top and would be honestly shocked when TDI is sued that it doesn't comply with the advice of counsel for its trial strategy and tactics. Blame the attorneys if you wish -- but I really don't think the client has much real control, regardless of who the client might be.

How many of your clients were largish, multinational entities with their own in-house counsel managing outside counsel? The idea that the client wasn't calling the shots on strategy here, despite whatever input trial counsel had, is hilarious.

---------- Post added November 13th, 2014 at 01:54 PM ----------


Does this mean that PADI paid the deceased's parents $800K and they're all done now and have no other recourse?

For all the rest of it, is it all finger pointing (by who?) trying to decide "who is to blame"?

If it turns out that the judge agrees that PADI's standards allow for unsafe ratios, what happens?

Can PADI he held responsible because the instructor followed their standards and someone died, even though the standards are plainly insufficient?

What about the instructor? If the instructor planned the dive in a way that plainly did not allow for handling an emergency without leaving one student alone, even if allowed by PADI's insufficient standards, is he at fault?

Note that by my reasoning, lacking the ability to teleport, any ratio more than 1:1 is insufficient to handle an emergency. Maybe other people don't agree?

Thanks!

flots.

For $800k, PADI has bought itself out of the expensive lottery that is staying in a lawsuit through final judgment and any appeals. They also avoid the possibility that, if their standards are found to be at fault in this case, that could become an established fact to be used against them in other cases. That may still be found in this case, but without PADI being a defendant when it happens, PADI can claim it wasn't present to contest that finding and therefore the question has to be litigated yet again in whatever other/later case(s) it comes up in.

What they haven't done is settled the plaintiffs' claims against the remaining defendants, which will go forward absent another settlement. As part of that process, the remaining defendants can argue that PADI's standards were the reason/a reason for the deaths, and that the instructor was therefore not liable/is less liable. If the judge or jury buys that argument, then at the end of the day the case might conclude with a finding that PADI was the/a cause of the accident and is responsible for $X worth of plaintiffs' damages. Of course, plaintiffs could not get any of that because they already agreed with PADI to settle their claims against it for $800k...so that'd be that.

The problem PADI faces is that it's much easier to shift blame to someone who isn't present to defend themselves, the so-called "empty chair." While you cannot stand up in front of a jury and say "PADI is clearly at fault here: they settled out for $800k rather than show up here today and defend themselves, because their standards for this class were indefensible," you will certainly try to imply it and juries will get there to some extent on their own. The plaintiffs have an incentive to argue on PADI's behalf and call witnesses from PADI, because it maximizes their chances of screwing over the remaining defendant and getting more money, but PADI clearly didn't feel like that was enough. Hence the attempt to remain in the case as a defendant (at least for a while...they couldn't stay in up until the jury is seated, because based on what I read in the sanctions opinion before that is when you have to declare you've settled out).
 
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They (PADI) don't appear to have any problem throwing one of their instructors under the bus when it is in their perceived best interest, if they felt their counsel mis-behaved, that bus is still there.

People keep saying this, but it seems to me the instructor got under the bus all by himself - pulling PADI under the bus with him - when he let a kid with asthma (if I read the legal stuff correctly, doesn't get mentioned much) do a DSD... and then positioned himself right under the rear wheels when he left the kids unattended.

Everyone wants to kick PADI, but it seems that PADI simply managed to crawl out from under the bus...

What do we teach? "Don't be the second victim."
 
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