Panicked diver not exhaling during ascent?

[ReefHound]

I think emergency situations vary too much for anyone to make blanket statements about what you should or should not do. You will have to make a snap judgment call based on the circumstances, what you know or think you know, and the degree of the emergency.

If you punch someone in the gut who is bolting and OOA, that could bad consequences. But so could merely grabbing their leg and slowing them down. Yet instructors routinely do this when a student bolts.

If they are OOA and you knock the last remaining breath from them, and they inhale reflexively, they are not going to suck in water and drown. Remember, their reg is still in their mouth so they will get nothing. But if they spit their reg out, be ready to replace it with your octo.

What has the most likelihood of recovery - immediate resuscitation of someone who inhaled water or survival of someone with major pulmonary embolism?

 

[boulderjohn]

If you punch someone in the gut who is bolting and OOA, that could bad consequences. But so could merely grabbing their leg and slowing them down. Yet instructors routinely do this when a student bolts.

Instructors routinely do the latter because it is an accepted industry practice they are taught to do. The former is not a standard practice, and it is not taught.

Thus, someone doing the latter is pretty much immune from any legal consequences. Someone doing the former, even if it is the right thing to do under the circumstances, may have to "justify" it in court, to use String's term.

 

[DaleC]

If they are OOA and you knock the last remaining breath from them, and they inhale reflexively, they are not going to suck in water and drown.

??? What will they suck in?" If you exhale - you will inhale - you will suck in something. If it's not air what is it?

Remember, their reg is still in their mouth so they will get nothing. But if they spit their reg out, be ready to replace it with your octo.

Oh I see, with a panicking diver OOA who you've just "knocked the last remaining breath out of you're going to get in close enough to offer a reg and either have the diver take it or place it in their mouths yourself... got it.
Having developed tunnel vision to the point where you are only concerned about air embolisms (to the exclusion of drowning) you are now violating your own safety and expecting a panicking diver to react like a reasonable diver. Good luck with the whole having your mask ripped off, reg ripped out of your mouth, bear hug o' death to the depths thing because that is as likely to happen as what your are suggesting.

What has the most likelihood of recovery - immediate resuscitation of someone who inhaled water or survival of someone with major pulmonary embolism?

Is that a serious question?
I see you've slanted it though. "immediate resuscitation" - "major pulmonary embolism". How about:
"what are the odds of immediately resuscitating a drowned diver in the water?" or "Is it guarenteed that this diver will suffer a major embolism that will result in a fate worse than drowning?".
But, to test the common sense of your suggestion just ask yourself "What would I rather do, drown or suffer an air embolism?" Why?

You seem to be banking on a lot of perfect outcomes here: Divers not inhaling water when the air is knocked out of them, panicking people acting reasonably, having the ability to immediately resusitate someone on the surface.
Some people think they can control every situation; others know they cannot.

 

[josh]

There is quite a lot that causes considerable concern on this thread, especially where the default position of many seems to be to hit/kick/prod the diver, all of which put you into very close proximity to a supposedly panicked diver.

As I understand it, I am required to act within my training and experience, and, as a gold standard, to act as a reasonably prudent Instructor would. Unless some one can point out where I am going wrong, my primary obligation is not to endanger myself (dead rescuer scenario). My second obligation is to ASK is the diver in trouble (Ok? hand signal) and my third obligation is then to (even in the absense of a response) to offer my alternate for the diver (or offer my primary reg, as this can provide further reassurance that the reg works).

At no point in this thread (as I recall) did anyone suggest offering the OK hand signal, but they do suggest kicking punching, pushing etc the diver. it seem that, in the case of needing to defend your actions, you would be left without a leg to stand on. "So, when the diver showed signs of panic, instead of asking him was he OK, you kneed him in the solar plexus. Could you point to the relavent paragraph in the Instructors manual laying out this proceedure?".

 

[covediver]

At no point in this thread (as I recall) did anyone suggest offering the OK hand signal, but they do suggest kicking punching, pushing etc the diver. it seem that, in the case of needing to defend your actions, you would be left without a leg to stand on. "So, when the diver showed signs of panic, instead of asking him was he OK, you kneed him in the solar plexus. Could you point to the relavent paragraph in the Instructors manual laying out this proceedure?".

Bravo. I think your post pretty much summarizes it very well.

 

[Ardy]

MarineDiva - I believe that you would put yourself at great risk of an emolism and have done so. I am amazed that you would do that, but I do admire your guts. I have seen a few panicked divers head to the surface through ear problems mostly, and although they normally go about 5-10 metres I havent seen one of them injured but that could be just luck. Going up in a panic from 30m is a different matter and I imagine the risks are much greater.

The last panicked OOA buddy I had was breathing so fast I was trying to slow his exhalations not speed them up. Nitrogen build up being what it is, I assume that my situation was closer to the norm.

I cant remember holding a panicked diver down although a good mate of mine panicked at 20m after 2 mins in the water. I got eye contact with him and then we went to the surface in a reasonably controlled condition ie no safety stop, although he had done about 50 dives he never dived again.

I imagine you could easily be killed by a panicked diver at 30m who was headed to the surface.

 

[marinediva]

Suggest you read page 84 and 85.....
It does not say in the manual to ask someone in active panic shooting to the surface,
are you ok?.....if so tell me which page...
What it does say is to ask someone who is in passive panic. BIG DIFFERENCE

now if you both wish to also borrow my glasses and read page 6 the philosophy of rescue,
and then realise that the rescue course is only extending on skills originally tought in OW you can also assume that after someone has learnt that much they would also start to develop greater skills at rescue by doing other courses. ie BSAC RESCUE COURSE WHICH CAN LAST TWO WEEKS I am told.
The skills taught on that are more technical and require advanced training.
Some of these skills are not taught by PADI, only cause PADI doesnt have an advanced rescue course.

Some of the skills taught in BSAC OW are skills learnt in PADI rescue.

I do not state this information to cause an arguement as to what is best.
It is to show different schools of thought.

I will teach PADI standard to a rescue student because I am a PADI instructor.
When I become a BSAC instructor I will teach BSAC.

I will complete a remote med course. WHY because I need information and training for remote areas. The training supplied by PADI EFR instructor course etc is not sufficent for my needs.
I need to know what other things I can do to help someone who has a four hour wait just to get the medical supplies. thats eight hours to a chamber if DCS.
No where in the EFR does it mention what to do when waiting that long.

except to have enough oxygen to last that long.
so it just goes to show,
there are some things that are not in the manual.
GOOD AND BAD

 

[marinediva]

MarineDiva - I believe that you would put yourself at great risk of an emolism and have done so. I am amazed that you would do that, but I do admire your guts. I have seen a few panicked divers head to the surface through ear problems mostly, and although they normally go about 5-10 metres I havent seen one of them injured but that could be just luck. Going up in a panic from 30m is a different matter and I imagine the risks are much greater.

I realise I was putting myself at risk, but do remember thinking I have just got here,
so the whole dive was actually less than 4mins, also I had made a decision that when I lost his leg first time if I didn't get him next time I would stop and let him go.
I was not prepared to surface for him at all. Be aware that I was in a very alert state before we got to the bottom as I already dealt with two equalising problems and the issues of managing eight students onto a bouy line which is used by forty other divers at the same time. I did take a bit of time to chase him and I was cursing him most of the way which I consider as venting my air.

I truly believe the only reason I could hold him, was I was on his tank and I had two extra weights on me. My legs attached and there was no moving me. He quickly calmed when he realised he was not going anywhere anymore and the arm swings were making no difference to me. I am use to being hit by my brothers, he hit like a girl.

 

[steelsaint]

As in any CPR/ First Aid/ Life Guard/ Fire or EMS Training, the Rescuers are always suppose to assess the situation and if there is no immediate danger than proceed to help the victim. If you die in the process what good are you to the one who is in need of rescue. There are very good points of view written on this thread and I believe that their would, without doubt, be attempts made to rescue the one bolting for the surface. I don't think in a panicked situation that I could hit the exact spot to make on a person to make them exhaust any air. If you have ever been around someone gasping for air or drowning their only concern is their air and their safety. I would try my best to slow his decent by grabbing a leg, but again if the person is bolting they probably have a good head start.

 

[ReefHound]

??? What will they suck in?" If you exhale - you will inhale - you will suck in something. If it's not air what is it?

Hook your reg to your tank leaving the valve closed, put the second stage in your mouth and suck. What did you suck in?

I can see you're all worked up but your hostility towards me is groundless. I never said which course of action one should do, I said situations vary and a rescuer will make a snap judgment. You aren't going to have time to have an internal debate on what you should do, it's going to be a reaction. You probably aren't going to be thinking back whether such and such is an approved technique or weighing the odds of a lawsuit.

In reality, you probably aren't going to have time or opportunity to do much of anything other than hang on for the ride up, or let them go and follow more slowly. I've been in real life situations where a diver panicked and bolted. I didn't punch them in the gut or even think of it, probably because it was trained and ingrained. In the heat of the moment you are going to revert to your training, that's the whole point of rescue training.