Question Do you ever practice dropping weights and handling the unexpected ascent?

[boulderjohn]

Not sure I understand your point?

You think a diver should practice (and learn this skill) on their own, but simply due to liability reasons, instructors should not teach it?

A skill that is too dangerous to practice under the supervision of an instructor is too dangerous to practice on your own. When a skill is not part of an approved curriculum, that should be a clue.

 

[sandiegoaes]

A skill that is too dangerous to practice under the supervision of an instructor is too dangerous to practice on your own. When a skill is not part of an approved curriculum, that should be a clue.

Bingo

It's not a skill you should practice and a dumb idea overall.

 

[sandiegoaes]

Not sure I understand your point?

You think a diver should practice (and learn this skill) on their own, but simply due to liability reasons, instructors should not teach it?

Neither

It's a dumb idea that could get you killed or seriously injured. By "self taught" I mean you will figure it out in your own if you ever need to do this. The only time I could ever see needing to do this is if you were about to drown and needed to ditch your weight belt to prevent that from happening.

 

[johndiver999]

Neither

It's a dumb idea that could get you killed or seriously injured. By "self taught" I mean you will figure it out in your own if you ever need to do this. The only time I could ever see needing to do this is if you were about to drown and needed to ditch your weight belt to prevent that from happening.

Yes that is the reason someone would drop their weight on the bottom. Lotsa of other options would need to be exhausted or considered before dropping a belt.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yes that is the reason someone would drop their weight on the bottom. Lotsa of other options would need to be exhausted or considered before dropping a belt.

That is the consensus of every thread that pops up on ScubaBoard on this topic.

Also on ScubaBoard, people regularly post the fact that almost everyone who dies on scuba has not dropped their weights, implying that if they had only dropped their weights, they would have lived. (Hint: Go through the descriptions of fatalities in the DAN reports and see in how many cases --if any--dropping weights would have made a difference.

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

I knew an instructor that used to teach this skill in his classes. One of his students screwed up the skill, embolized and ended up successfully suing the liability insurance company for $5 million.

Some skills are better left alone or self taught.

Agreed…again, not for everyone…bear in mind as we all should…Life Support Equipment in the water with ‘physiological’ challenges…I would definitely question the priorities of the instructor as exercises such like these should NOT be a requirement. Even then, I am not surprised at the outcome….

 

[boulderjohn]

I would definitely question the priorities of the instructor as exercises such like these should NOT be a requirement.

Throughout the history of scuba, instructors have devised exercises that they believe will make their students better divers. In some cases, the drill may indeed bring that value, but with an unacceptable risk factor. Because of that risk factor, these exercises are nearly never part of an approved scuba curriculum, so an instructor needs to keep that in mind when deviating from approved instruction.

I once researched emergency ascent instruction, finding fascinating articles from the early days of instruction detailing proposed ways of teaching OOA divers how to get to the surface. I saw how the CESA exercise developed, and I want to share one aspect of that development as an example.

After the CESA was developed, a study showed decades ago that CESA training was by far the cause of the most fatalities in training. The primary reason was that students were required to discard their regulators during the ascent, and in some cases they would inhale water, which begins the drowning process. As a result, most agencies required instructors to be sure students kept their regulators in their mouths during a CESA. I was taught to hold my hand in front of that regulator so that if the student started to spit it out, I could immediately put it back.

One country in particular did not like that change--Belgium. They insisted that the regulator be discarded, and they continued to have a large number of fatal incidents. They finally decided to end that practice, and a 10-year follow-up showed that they had a significant decrease in the number of fatalities during that decade.

But the practice persists. People occasionally come on ScubaBoard to insist it is better to discard the regulator. A very poorly written Wikipedia article calls discarding the regulator during a CESA an Emergency Swimming Ascent (ESA), implying it is an acceptable practice, even though it is quoting an article about Belgium's high number of fatalities and then later quotes the 10-year study talking about the decrease in Belgium's fatalities.

Summary: If you are an instructor deviating from your agencies prescribed course of study, you may well be helping your students become better divers, but you also could be risking their lives as you do it.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

How much weight are you wearing that you can't ascend with it? Even if your bcd was completely deflated, I would think that you shouldn't have so much weight on you that you can't ascend under fin power. Maybe I'm wrong because I have never tried ditching my weights and ascending.

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

Throughout the history of scuba, instructors have devised exercises that they believe will make their students better divers. In some cases, the drill may indeed bring that value, but with an unacceptable risk factor. Because of that risk factor, these exercises are nearly never part of an approved scuba curriculum, so an instructor needs to keep that in mind when deviating from approved instruction.

I once researched emergency ascent instruction, finding fascinating articles from the early days of instruction detailing proposed ways of teaching OOA divers how to get to the surface. I saw how the CESA exercise developed, and I want to share one aspect of that development as an example.

After the CESA was developed, a study showed decades ago that CESA training was by far the cause of the most fatalities in training. The primary reason was that students were required to discard their regulators during the ascent, and in some cases they would inhale water, which begins the drowning process. As a result, most agencies required instructors to be sure students kept their regulators in their mouths during a CESA. I was taught to hold my hand in front of that regulator so that if the student started to spit it out, I could immediately put it back.

One country in particular did not like that change--Belgium. They insisted that the regulator be discarded, and they continued to have a large number of fatal incidents. They finally decided to end that practice, and a 10-year follow-up showed that they had a significant decrease in the number of fatalities during that decade.

But the practice persists. People occasionally come on ScubaBoard to insist it is better to discard the regulator. A very poorly written Wikipedia article calls discarding the regulator during a CESA an Emergency Swimming Ascent (ESA), implying it is an acceptable practice, even though it is quoting an article about Belgium's high number of fatalities and then later quotes the 10-year study talking about the decrease in Belgium's fatalities.

Summary: If you are an instructor deviating from your agencies prescribed course of study, you may well be helping your students become better divers, but you also could be risking their lives as you do it.

…I must say…THAT was an excellent write-up, John. In my early days of diving, 1977- 1984, I was going to college and I acquired my DM on the way to become a PADI instructor. Well, that ‘dream’ got dashed after I had to get what some folks call a ‘Real Job’ after that a struggle to find the funds to actually go on the dives that I enjoyed. My ‘Very Real’ OOA experience was during a dive in extremely adverse conditions at the end of a season of excavating shipwrecks. Cold, bad current, bad surface conditions and only 2 divers. At this time in my life, I would say it should have been scrapped but weather conditions were worsening by the day in late October. At that time I was only OW certified. No gauges on Conshelf SHRs w/‘J’-valves. I was confident diving that way…until it happened. I didn’t notice that I flipped my ‘J’ valve on a rebar survey stake. Too cold and tired to notice, I burned up my tank. We actually finished the survey then it happened…no air… O K, flip the ‘J’ valve. ( already flipped ) This was the real thing. I didn’t train for this in a pool or cert dive…just ‘remembered’ from class lecture. The controlled ascent worked and I had a couple breaths on the way up. I was one of the lucky ones, I reckon. I used my own personal gear after that despite effects of polluted water on rubber. We requested gauges for our regs. The State turned it down. I was only a volunteer. Next season we were all on hookah except for ‘tenders’…

Next episode. …during DM training the group I was training with were asked if we would do a ‘Controlled’ ascent in an OOA exercise. Once with mask, once without. It was NOT a requirement and 2 Instructors we all trusted were assisting and had regulators ready in case something went awry. All 4 candidates did this successfully then discussed different aspects of this event.

The only weight belt drop exercise was in my Basic NASDS/YMCA class and it was the old ‘Doff and Don’ exercise in a 10’ pool. I was new…It took me a couple times. The lady who was to become my bride however did the entire exercise without a hitch…she was a ‘fish’ like some SB descriptions. Too long a story to pass along. But it really shouldn’t be a requirement. As you have pointed out a chance of drowning or embolism. A ‘Real’ danger when diving.


Boulderjohn, Thank YOU for your insight…
Respectfully,
Scott G. Bonser

 

[johndiver999]

How much weight are you wearing that you can't ascend with it? Even if your bcd was completely deflated, I would think that you shouldn't have so much weight on you that you can't ascend under fin power. Maybe I'm wrong because I have never tried ditching my weights and ascending.

Why don't you find out for yourself - rather than talk hypothetically on the internet? There is no real danger in trying.

Just dump all the air in your BC and see if you can swim up from depth (presumably with a full tank).