Question Do you ever practice dropping weights and handling the unexpected ascent?

[boulderjohn]

The only weight belt drop exercise was in my Basic NASDS/YMCA class and it was the old ‘Doff and Don’ exercise in a 10’ pool. I was new…It took me a couple times. The lady who was to become my bride however did the entire exercise without a hitch…she was a ‘fish’ like some SB descriptions. Too long a story to pass along. But it really shouldn’t be a requirement. As you have pointed out a chance of drowning or embolism. A ‘Real’ danger when diving.

The doff and don is not approved by any agency I know because of the danger of embolism.

In 2007, Allison Rainey Gibson, a scuba instructor had students at the University of Alabama doing that exercise, and one of them died of an embolism. Here is an initial description of the event. Google her name and you will see details of the criminal charges she faced and the wrongful death lawsuit that was filed. I did not see any articles detailing the aftermath of those legal actions.

Years ago one of my instructors did an unannounced, unofficial exercise to see how I would react in an emergency. I did OK. He later did it on another student, who did not do OK and very nearly created a double fatality.

 

[boulderjohn]

How much weight are you wearing that you can't ascend with it? Even if your bcd was completely deflated, I would think that you shouldn't have so much weight on you that you can't ascend under fin power. Maybe I'm wrong because I have never tried ditching my weights and ascending.

Where you can see this happen is with the use of very thick wetsuits. The weight is needed both to descend initially and to hold a safety stop during ascent. At the bottom of a dive, though, the suit compresses and that much weight is not needed, and it can be too much for some people.

I saw this happen when doing OW dives in Colorado with thick wetsuits. I learned that one of our instructors, a man who never dived anything colder than tropical waters, was teaching students in their pool sessions that before beginning their ascents, they should dump all air from their BCDs and then swim up. It works in a pool with 3mm suits, but it is not so great in deeper water with thicker suits. I learned of this teaching concept when I had to drop quickly to grab a plummeting student.

 

[Belzelbub]

The doff and don is not approved by any agency I know because of the danger of embolism.

Do you know when this was removed? I most definitely did this many times during an OW course (YMCA) I took in 1997. It was absolutely not part of the courses my daughters took in ‘15 and ‘18.

When I did it, embolism risk was not really an issue, but things have changed. I took my OW course(s) with a weight belt and non weight integrated BC. A heck of a lot harder with a weight integrated BC.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

Where you can see this happen is with the use of very thick wetsuits. The weight is needed both to descend initially and to hold a safety stop during ascent. At the bottom of a dive, though, the suit compresses and that much weight is not needed, and it can be too much for some people.

I saw this happen when doing OW dives in Colorado with thick wetsuits. I learned that one of our instructors, a man who never dived anything colder than tropical waters, was teaching students in their pool sessions that before beginning their ascents, they should dump all air from their BCDs and then swim up. It works in a pool with 3mm suits, but it is not so great in deeper water with thicker suits. I learned of this teaching concept when I had to drop quickly to grab a plummeting student.

Thank you. That makes perfect sense.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

Why don't you find out for yourself - rather than talk hypothetically on the internet? There is no real danger in trying.

Just dump all the air in your BC and see if you can swim up from depth (presumably with a full tank).

I'll give it a shot but i feel like I do that on most dives. I go to release air from my wing as I ascend and there's nothing in it. But then, my tank is not full. So yes, point taken.

 

[boulderjohn]

Do you know when this was removed? I most definitely did this many times during an OW course (YMCA) I took in 1997. It was absolutely not part of the courses my daughters took in ‘15 and ‘18.

When I did it, embolism risk was not really an issue, but things have changed. I took my OW course(s) with a weight belt and non weight integrated BC. A heck of a lot harder with a weight integrated BC.

I don't know when it was part of any official agency curriculum. It might have been. It might not have been. Instructors have been adding whatever they feel like to courses since forever.

In 1960, independent instructors from across America met in Houston with the goal of creating a new agency. The people who were in charge were shocked to see some of them harassing students by ripping off masks, shutting off air, etc. Reflecting on it years later, some thought it was more for the benefit (lots of fun) of the instructor than the student. They did not make it part of the courses, but they allowed instructors to add whatever they wanted, so lots of people were taught that way and probably believed it was part of the official course. You can read about in the History of NAUI.

So I am sure that you can find instructors somewhere doing Doff and Don even today, just as the SSI instructor at Alabama did, even though it was not part of the SSI course. About 15 years ago I was given a delicate task by the dive shop where I worked. A young woman had decided to renew certification efforts despite being traumatized in her previous attempt by an instructor who made harassment (turning off gas, ripping off masks, berating students not measuring up) by her previous instructor. That previous instructor was PADI, and PADI absolutely does not include or allow that in a course.

 

[high_order1]

The people who were in charge were shocked to see some of them harassing students by ripping off masks, shutting off air, etc. Reflecting on it years later, some thought it was more for the benefit (lots of fun) of the instructor than the student.

that continues to today in US military courses. The instructors are limited to what they can do on one breath (no open circuit).
Chicken / egg, wonder where it came from first?

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

The doff and don is not approved by any agency I know because of the danger of embolism.

In 2007, Allison Rainey Gibson, a scuba instructor had students at the University of Alabama doing that exercise, and one of them died of an embolism. Here is an initial description of the event. Google her name and you will see details of the criminal charges she faced and the wrongful death lawsuit that was filed. I did not see any articles detailing the aftermath of those legal actions.

Years ago one of my instructors did an unannounced, unofficial exercise to see how I would react in an emergency. I did OK. He later did it on another student, who did not do OK and very nearly created a double fatality.

This does not at all surprise me, John, as I have discussed with other instructors, the doff & don skill was scrapped long ago. I did, however have to perform this maneuver again as a prerequisite to assisting instructors at a youth aquatics SCUBA camp. My performance was OK, I passed. I was chosen as an assistant instructor and the cert they had was YMCA ( does YMCA even have a SCUBA certification program anymore?) This was in the summer of 1981. My thoughts at that time was there is a possibility of a SCUBA accident? …. but it was still part of their program. I am glad the doff & don is not used at all anymore.

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

I don't know when it was part of any official agency curriculum. It might have been. It might not have been. Instructors have been adding whatever they feel like to courses since forever.

In 1960, independent instructors from across America met in Houston with the goal of creating a new agency. The people who were in charge were shocked to see some of them harassing students by ripping off masks, shutting off air, etc. Reflecting on it years later, some thought it was more for the benefit (lots of fun) of the instructor than the student. They did not make it part of the courses, but they allowed instructors to add whatever they wanted, so lots of people were taught that way and probably believed it was part of the official course. You can read about in the History of NAUI.

So I am sure that you can find instructors somewhere doing Doff and Don even today, just as the SSI instructor at Alabama did, even though it was not part of the SSI course. About 15 years ago I was given a delicate task by the dive shop where I worked. A young woman had decided to renew certification efforts despite being traumatized in her previous attempt by an instructor who made harassment (turning off gas, ripping off masks, berating students not measuring up) by her previous instructor. That previous instructor was PADI, and PADI absolutely does not include or allow that in a course.

Enlightening, John, although it doesn’t surprise me. …how to make SCUBA a most traumatic sport. …I had an experience with an OW student during my DM training who grabbed my mask without warning. Afterthe incident and subsequent discussion in which he thought it would be ‘amusing’ to remove my mask and drop it in Ginnie Springs during a post certification dive. I thought I had a panicked student I had to rescue. He was sent home to Virginia and did not participate in any more dives on that trip. I thought I ‘Blew’ my DM cert after a string of profanities I cut loose on the perpetrator after we surfaced. The instructors ‘Backed me up’ and I received my certification after that. Rest of the account way too lengthy to relate. Not a pleasant experience however, training and Grace of God saved MY life, I felt.

Incidentally PADI told instructors that ‘Technically’ since he passed all of his skills…they had to certify this ‘sick-minded’ individual.

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

Why don't you find out for yourself - rather than talk hypothetically on the internet? There is no real danger in trying.

Just dump all the air in your BC and see if you can swim up from depth (presumably with a full tank).

Why not try the ‘Vintage’ diving setup whereby there is NO BCD involved, just ‘practice’ adjusting your weights in various water conditions w/or w/o wetsuit, etc. maybe a ‘Mae West’ type vest which was not used for buoyancy compensation, just a floatation device for divers when they surfaced. I have done a few of these when I was younger for the experience. Modern diving much safer and easier now… Divers before my certification date had to do it…some still this do for the ‘nostalgia’… some ‘vdh’ divers still do regularly……a swim from depth can be quite a challenge but easier as you get closer to the surface. I may be in ‘Left field’ but not having that ability to adjust your buoyancy makes a BIG difference.