Panic - Split from overweight thread

[Walter]

yea, I bet. Hippies have open minds ,you know Walter

Some. Others merely had closed their minds in a particular way or a particular area.

Lawrence Gonzales does such a nice discussion of the panic cycle, in DEEP SURVIVAL I thought he said it was rooted in the limbic brain. and ...primordial reflexes are not an easy thing to "command".

Some of what he says is counterintuitive.

I haven't read it. I'll have to check it out.

 

[northen diver]

yea, I bet. Hippies have open minds ,you know Walter

Lawrence Gonzales does such a nice discussion of the panic cycle, in DEEP SURVIVAL I thought he said it was rooted in the limbic brain. and ...primordial reflexes are not an easy thing to "command".

Some of what he says is counterintuitive.

This is true. I posted a few posts back on how it transmitt to the limbic part of the brain. Another good read is by Dr. Daniel Goleman, Emotional Intelligence. There is some studies being done that suggests that managing fear and panic is related to ones mental capacities (not to be confused with ones I.Q.) The military has actually used a scoring system called PULHEES to "weed" through recruits BEFORE they go off to a high tech, high stress MOS/Rate. If they dont score high enough in the standard mental capacity, they dont get the school wanted. The thought behind this is that the military only has so many days/months to train a group of people for specific tasks and they dont have a whole lot of time to deal with ones deep rooted fears. If you have a deep rooted fear, it gets in the way of learning. It can be done, but at a much slower rate than the rest of the class.

 

[lmorin]

Many of you are taking things totally out of context.

Northen diver & lmorin, panic attacks is a totally different issue from divers who panic as a result of a minor problem that frightens them. Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the topic I'm discussing.............

Ah, but you failed to define your terms. The word being bandied about was, and is, "panic." The woman who died may have panicked. The primary symptom of a "panic attack" is panic. If you wish to exclude "panic attack" from this discussion because nobody knows what causes them and because they have no known treatment, then you are changing the terms of the overall debate which concerns why this particular woman may have experienced "panic."

You imply that her putative panic was avoidable. I am suggesting that there is an alternative explanation, also involving panic, that has a component minimally influenced by learning/experience. Without further information, I think it is impossible to know the reality of the situation under discussion.

 

[TSandM]

I wonder if, as with so many other things, the reactivity of the limbic system runs on a bell-shaped curve, from people who wouldn't turn a hair if the Martians landed to people who have "panic attacks" from triggers that are so minor they can't even identify them. The majority of us would fall in the middle ground, where enough stress can cause panic but it isn't an immediate reaction to anything startling, and people in that range can be taught to recognize anxiety and use coping strategies before it spirals out of control.

I would think, however, that if that is the case, people with a tendency to panic attacks would make very poor candidates for scuba diving. There is almost no stimulus you can provide a human body that gets a more immediate and vigorous response than stimulation of the airway (eg. aspirating seawater) and we're all likely to experience that to some degree from time to time.

 

[northen diver]

I wonder if, as with so many other things, the reactivity of the limbic system runs on a bell-shaped curve, from people who wouldn't turn a hair if the Martians landed to people who have "panic attacks" from triggers that are so minor they can't even identify them. The majority of us would fall in the middle ground, where enough stress can cause panic but it isn't an immediate reaction to anything startling, and people in that range can be taught to recognize anxiety and use coping strategies before it spirals out of control.

I would think, however, that if that is the case, people with a tendency to panic attacks would make very poor candidates for scuba diving. There is almost no stimulus you can provide a human body that gets a more immediate and vigorous response than stimulation of the airway (eg. aspirating seawater) and we're all likely to experience that to some degree from time to time.

I had seen this in my rock climbing classes that I teach also. Heights do weird things to people also. The only differance is that I am able to talk to my clients on the cliffs edge to help calm them.

 

[Walter]

Ah, but you failed to define your terms. The word being bandied about was, and is, "panic." The woman who died may have panicked. The primary symptom of a "panic attack" is panic. If you wish to exclude "panic attack" from this discussion because nobody knows what causes them and because they have no known treatment, then you are changing the terms of the overall debate which concerns why this particular woman may have experienced "panic."

You imply that her putative panic was avoidable. I am suggesting that there is an alternative explanation, also involving panic, that has a component minimally influenced by learning/experience. Without further information, I think it is impossible to know the reality of the situation under discussion.

Actually, I never said anything about her particular case. I know almost nothing about her particular case. Yes, panic is part of panic attack, but we weren't discussing panic attacks. We were discussing panic in a very limited context and that was the only thing to which I was referring. I can't imagine why anyone would think I had expanded the topic.

 

[Cacia]

This is true. I posted a few posts back on how it transmitt to the limbic part of the brain. Another good read is by Dr. Daniel Goleman, Emotional Intelligence. There is some studies being done that suggests that managing fear and panic is related to ones mental capacities (not to be confused with ones I.Q.) The military has actually used a scoring system called PULHEES to "weed" through recruits BEFORE they go off to a high tech, high stress MOS/Rate. If they dont score high enough in the standard mental capacity, they dont get the school wanted. The thought behind this is that the military only has so many days/months to train a group of people for specific tasks and they dont have a whole lot of time to deal with ones deep rooted fears. If you have a deep rooted fear, it gets in the way of learning. It can be done, but at a much slower rate than the rest of the class.

yes, I read ET a long time ago, I need to check it out again.

TSandm, is it fair to say your limbic system "bell curve threshold" is moderated by the frontal lobe (or parietal?) to some degree? that is where the training would come in....like brakes, or the lack of them.

that is how I conceptualize it, although sometimes my mind makes things up to suit itself.

 

[fisheyeview]

This seems to be a dangerous thread to jump into (almost as dangerous as asking a groop of photographers which o-ring grease to use), but what the heck.

Let me start by saying that I have been a divemaster since 1980, and have actively worked hundreds of classes from openwater to divemaster. I started diving before I was old enough to know what fear was. I'm not saying that I am some Uberdivemaster.

Fear, and fear taken to it's extreme form being panic, are sometimes irrational and unexpected responses to stressful situations. (I am not talking phobias). I have seen a lot of divers over the years panic over something that I thought was no big deal. My gut reaction would be "what the h*ll is their problem", but then I had to put myself in their fins. What to me is no big deal is a big deal to someone else because it is new to them.

You can tell a diver that is doing the Duane for the first time that the current is ripping and not to look back for me on the current line that I will be right behind them. That to look back in the strong current can cause their mask to spin off their face. What's the first thing they do, they look back and their mask spins on their face and they panic. Why do they panic? Because they have not been trained to deal with the situation. (I have since stopped doing guided dives for people who do not have the necessary certification and experience to do a dive).

I have seen rational adults go into a full blown panic in a pool class. That person after a lot of one on one work in the pool went on to become a good diver who went all the way through rescue. Most students can be taught to deal with these fears by working with them to relax and though a lot of attention and practice.

I have had the good fortune over the years to work with an LDS, and instructors who took the ime to teach their students. If the instructor, or myself, fealt that the student was not ready for open water dives, then they did not go to the ocean until they were ready. If we fealt that they were not compitent to be certified after the prerequisit 4 open water dives, then they were not certified until we were comfortable with them in the water. I don't look at it as a certification mill where you get them in and out as fast as you can to make more money.

I have even gone as far as telling students to give up trying to dive and take up tennis or golf.

I have been in situations where I have fealt fear while diving, but it has never lead to panic. On my fist night dive I was sitting on the boat transom ready to get in the water. The instructor said "let me know if you see anything dangerous" and then shoved me in the water. He did not do this on a regular basis. I think he did it to me beacause he knew me well enough to know that I would not panic. This was back in the day when they let instructors rip your mask off under water. I'm not saying that this should be the way that instructors behave.

A while back I was diving with some friends. Upon surfacing from the last dive one of them started to have problems on ther surface. She was having trouble staying a float. Her BC had torn where the hose connects. No matter how much air she tried to add it just kept rushing out through the tear. I could see panic starting to come into her eyes. I swam over to her and removed her weight belt. She immediately relaxed. I asked her if she remembered the rule of dumping her weight belt, and she said no. Luckily, I had the experience to recognize the situation and deal with it before it lead to panic.

This is such a basic skill that we all learn in our openwater class. It's unfortunate that most divers take their openwater class doing all of the skills required to be certified. Once they have their c-card they think whew, I'll never have to remove my mask, or do a regulator recovery again. They don't realize that these are basic skills that they are taught to help them know haw to survive. These are skills that everyone should know how to do without even thinking about it.

When I first read through some of Walters post I thought that they were some what callous. After I thought about it some more I think that he is some what right. While not all panic can be completely removed, or trained away, a lot of it can be avoided/prevented by proper training and experience. We don't know what factors may lead to panic and fear in every situation. It's easy to talk about this from the safety and comfort at our computers.

I believe that the most important certification anyone can ret is rescue diver. Not because it prepares them to rescue someone, but because it teaches them their own limitations, and how to better deal with a problem when it arrises.

I am not saying that all fear and all panic can be eliminated from all divers. What I am saying is that a lot of it can be prevented by proper training in their skills, experience, and practice, practice, practice.

I have been in several situations (mostly of my own doing) that had the potential to lead to bigger problems. Fortunately, I had the proper training and experince to deal with these problems before they got out of hand. I used to tell my students, and other divers, the first rule in a crisis situation is to stop and take your own pulse. What I was telling them is what others have said here. Stop, think, then act.

If you can keep your wits, while those around you are losing theirs, then you don't fully grasp the seriousness of the situation.

 

[D_B]

I at first felt as Fisheyeview did about Walters posts, but I've changed my mind (as he has, good post Fisheye ) ... Walter is right about the training, training is the key to pushing back the panic areas
.. As yet, I have not had to deal with anything to me make panic, but I've been close once and I know my make up, and my tendency to get blinders on when task loaded ... even my rescue training has not removed all of it. I do know that while rescue sounds unnecessary to a lot of folks and the diving they do, I found that it was necessary for me, and I think all divers should consider it as soon as possible after getting there C card. At the very least, it gives you more confidence in yourself, and expands your envelope ... I have even thought about taking the class again at some point in the future to refresh and reinforce the lessons learned

I feel so sorry for the people , the kids, all ... My Condolences

 

[The Chairman]

Training is important and should be sought after more than additional gear... BUT: there is no training to teach you how to deal with panic AFTER it overtakes you. I would hasten to add that any training billed as being able to do this should be considered as suspect as the guy hawking that YOU TOO can be a millionaire on the internet.

From the little bit of the chronology given, it appears to me that the onset of this panic was nigh to instantaneous as they oft times are. CO2 buildup, disorientation, nausea and a literal host of other contributing factors can come together so quickly as to leave an experienced and well trained diver completely panicked. Walter has this quote about the rain drops and the flood... well the converse is true. You can't excuse all of the other, BIGGER raindrops from causing the flood just because you dislike one particular drop.

Panic kills just like narcosis. And if you think you are somehow IMMUNE to panic because of your copious classes and prodigious skills you are sadly mistaken. Just as you can learn to cope with narcosis only to a limited degree, you can also learn to cope with panic/stress to an even lesser degree but only the fool believes that they can fully tame this savage beast.