PADI Wreck Specialty

[Kevrumbo]

Those links are all well and good, and again simply echo my comments. It would appear most of the training is on gear, and is basically the same as to what you would get in a cavern course (but with doubles standard and liftbags I suppose, whoopity-doo).

As I mentioned in my previous post, but will repeat here for slow learners, it would be beneficial to include more wreck-specific information -- you know, information specific to shipwrecks. Yes, penetration skills are part of it, but for people that want to know about shipwrecks and wreck diving, I don't think you necessarily need to know about doubles (including setup and failures), minimum decompression, and physics/physiology. Again, that could be learned in other tech courses.

For someone that wants to know what they are actually looking at on the bottom and learn something about shipwrecks, it offers little IMHO. And its not specific to 5th D, so don't get your panties all twisted. The same thing goes from classes I see offered by PADI, etc.



As I stated in my first post, but will repeat here for slow learners, issues such as shipwreck identification, mapping, nautical architecture, navigation and orientation should be discussed, as well as the standard use of guidelines, shooting bags, rigging issues, penetration considerations, etc., that most courses offer. Also, where you can research shipwrecks, sources of information, etc. I just think it is more than running lines, but learning about shipwrecks themselves. It is beneficial to know basic vessel layout, differences in powerplants, noticing diagnostic features that can help you date a vessel or orient yourself on a shipwreck, etc. For example, being able to notice a hawse pipe and chain locker in the debris field of a broken down wreck will quickly tell you that you are on the remains of the bow versus the stern. Or the fact that boilers are placed forward of triple expansion engines so you know which way you might be swimming on a broken down freighter, etc. Not all wrecks are intact artificial reefs like the YUKON.

Plus many other tricks and tips that no one teaches, and you get only after having been diving on a wide range of shipwrecks for a number of years (not from a generic textbook or video like PADI, etc.).

If you want to simply safely dive on wrecks, take any of the agency offered courses. If you want to be a wreck diver and learn about shipwrecks, you need to know much more....

Look Mike, Real and Primary Wreck Diving issues involve equipment preparation, penetration techniques, gas planning, contingency procedures etc. These are the relevant skills that will get you and your buddy out of the Wreck alive and back up to the surface sans the DCS Syndrome. All the research you did on the Wreck beforehand, all the clues gleaned from the Shipwright's Plan's telling you where you are belowdecks --aren't going to help you at all in a siltout, sharing air with an out-of-gas buddy, trying to find your guide line back to the exit, at your deepest & furthest point of penetration.

 

[aue-mike]

Look Mike, Real and Primary Wreck Diving issues involve equipment preparation, penetration techniques, gas planning, contingency procedures etc. These are the relevant skills that will get you and your buddy out of the Wreck alive and back up to the surface sans the DCS Syndrome. All the research you did on the Wreck beforehand, all the clues gleaned from the Shipwright's Plan's telling you where you are belowdecks --aren't going to help you at all in a siltout, sharing air with an out-of-gas buddy, trying to find your guide line back to the exit, at your deepest & furthest point of penetration.

I am not arguing that point. But again, many of these skills are the same to those gained in a cavern or cave course, and are not unique to wreck diving. Sure, there are different nuances to wreck diving compared to cave diving, but running a line properly is the same regardless of environment.

Those taking courses like the NAUI or PADI course will likely be safer divers (compared to OW divers), but not necessarily smarter wreck divers. I am simply pointing out there is more to wreck diving than diving on a wreck. That is if you want the most out of the experience. I can't make this any clearer....

 

[RJP]

Sadly, nothing. Initially, I had wanted to take this course too. After discussing it with others, I found it teaches little to nothing. From my conversations, the only thing it "teaches" is how to swim around the outside of wreck and draw a picture of it.

If I am wrong, someone here will surely correct me. Once again, I HAVE NOT TAKEN this class.
FD

LOL!

To borrow from your sig file:

There are people who talk....and there are people who know what they're talking about....and a world of difference between the two.



I have to laugh to hear someone say "it offers nothing" and then qualify that statement with "...but I didn't take it so I might be wrong."

For sure, the course offers nothing to those who DON'T TAKE IT.

As most people here have offered, it is entirely "instructor dependent."

My PADI Wreck course was very well done; it included extensive reel/line work, lift bag use, penetration, silt-out drills, light failure, emergency scenarios, and other similar stuff.

The instructor I had is a tech/cave guy who doesn't fool around.

- Everyone in the class had to repeat one of the dives to ensure we had nailed some of the skills that weren't up to snuff the first go around.

- One of the guys in the class was not given a cert at the end, but rather told to come back for another go at the class

Looks like my mileage DID vary, but as is the case with most ANY course, what the certification TRULY allows you to do is to continue to learn.

 

[fire_diver]

LOL!

I have to laugh to hear someone say "it offers nothing" and then qualify that statement with "...but I didn't take it so I might be wrong."

For sure, the course offers nothing to those who DON'T TAKE IT.

If you look, I posted this after NO ONE replied to the OP's question. Since no others decided to offer advice, I "spoke up" with what I knew, and qualified it as such. I had not taken the course because I had been warned off of it by others who had, and had a bad experience (usually the most vocal of any group).

I am VERY glad to have had this discussion, becuase I have found that it can be a very good class. I also believe I have found the DS and instructor I want to take this class through. Unless it's a greatly held secret, there are NO good wrecks to dive in my local. Closest I know of is a 7 hour drive away. I've got to go all the way to Chicago to dive anything that sank on accident.

So, was my initial comment wrong? Yep. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong. I have learned some good stuff here.

Sounds like you had a very good instructor. Mind sharing who and where? Other's in the area might want to learn from them too.

FD

 

[jellyfishluv]

Those links are all well and good, and again simply echo my comments. It would appear most of the training is on gear, and is basically the same as to what you would get in a cavern course (but with doubles standard and liftbags I suppose, whoopity-doo).

As I mentioned in my previous post, but will repeat here for slow learners, it would be beneficial to include more wreck-specific information -- you know, information specific to shipwrecks. Yes, penetration skills are part of it, but for people that want to know about shipwrecks and wreck diving, I don't think you necessarily need to know about doubles (including setup and failures), minimum decompression, and physics/physiology. Again, that could be learned in other tech courses.

For someone that wants to know what they are actually looking at on the bottom and learn something about shipwrecks, it offers little IMHO. And its not specific to 5th D, so don't get your panties all twisted. The same thing goes from classes I see offered by PADI, etc.

I was actually thinking of taking the PADI Wreck diver course - working my way to having the 5 cards to be labeled a Master Scuba Diver, which I believe is a designation based on experieince not cards, but I want both. Anyways, I was concerned that the PADI Wreck course WOULDN'T provide me with the rigerous training I think is required to fully penitrate a large wreck. Because really, that is a techhnical dive not a recreational dive, but we have all these certified divers that want to be show-off's and not just look at the wreck from the outside, but go inside, and if they don't have the knowledge they can and will die!

I have a cavern certification, I learned the skills needed in an overhead envirnoment, and with the right equipment (reals, lights, etc) and planning I would feel comportable penitrating a wreck even WITHOUT a WRECK DIVER C-Card.

As I stated in my first post, but will repeat here for slow learners, issues such as shipwreck identification, mapping, nautical architecture, navigation and orientation should be discussed, as well as the standard use of guidelines, shooting bags, rigging issues, penetration considerations, etc., that most courses offer. Also, where you can research shipwrecks, sources of information, etc. I just think it is more than running lines, but learning about shipwrecks themselves. It is beneficial to know basic vessel layout, differences in powerplants, noticing diagnostic features that can help you date a vessel or orient yourself on a shipwreck, etc. For example, being able to notice a hawse pipe and chain locker in the debris field of a broken down wreck will quickly tell you that you are on the remains of the bow versus the stern. Or the fact that boilers are placed forward of triple expansion engines so you know which way you might be swimming on a broken down freighter, etc. Not all wrecks are intact artificial reefs like the YUKON.

Plus many other tricks and tips that no one teaches, and you get only after having been diving on a wide range of shipwrecks for a number of years (not from a generic textbook or video like PADI, etc.).

If you want to simply safely dive on wrecks, take any of the agency offered courses. If you want to be a wreck diver and learn about shipwrecks, you need to know much more....

AS for learning ABOUT wrecks, I think that's a great point, but again, that is knowledge for the sake of knowing things, like knowing the latin names of flowers. We don't needed to know the latin name of a flower to enjoy it's beauty, but those who do know it feel a deeper sense of understanding (usually).

The WRECK diver Course NEEDS to focus on techniques and skills to prevent show-off recreational divers from harming themselves! If a person wants to learn more about the types of wrecks out there, enrichment knowledge -they can buy a book or two and read it in their own time for enjoyment; or if lucky and financially able, earn a degree in it: http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/postgrad/maritime.html

I understand what you are saying, but the reality is this: wrecks are alluring to those who do not posses the skills to dive them, therefore the for profit organizations are making a bit-o-cash whilst maybe providing recreational divers with a knowledge and skills base that might save his or her life if one decides to explore the inside of the Yukon or other wrecks. Maybe that OW diver will think, oh yeah, I better not enter this wreck because I learned that without a guideline, 3 light sources and great bouyancy, I could get caught in this thing called a silt-out and never find my way out before I run out of air! Even with my Wreck certification...

If the PADI, NAUI, or SSI recreational wreck courses don't provide these things, then they are a waste of money

 

[flw]

I have a cavern certification, I learned the skills needed in an overhead envirnoment, and with the right equipment (reals, lights, etc) and planning I would feel comportable penitrating a wreck even WITHOUT a WRECK DIVER C-Card.

AS for learning ABOUT wrecks, I think that's a great point, but again, that is knowledge for the sake of knowing things, like knowing the latin names of flowers. We don't needed to know the latin name of a flower to enjoy it's beauty, but those who do know it feel a deeper sense of understanding (usually).

The WRECK diver Course NEEDS to focus on techniques and skills to prevent show-off recreational divers from harming themselves! If a person wants to learn more about the types of wrecks out there, enrichment knowledge -they can buy a book or two and read it in their own time for enjoyment; or if lucky and financially able, earn a degree in it: http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/postgrad/maritime.html

I understand what you are saying, but the reality is this: wrecks are alluring to those who do not posses the skills to dive them, therefore the for profit organizations are making a bit-o-cash whilst maybe providing recreational divers with a knowledge and skills base that might save his or her life if one decides to explore the inside of the Yukon or other wrecks. Maybe that OW diver will think, oh yeah, I better not enter this wreck because I learned that without a guideline, 3 light sources and great bouyancy, I could get caught in this thing called a silt-out and never find my way out before I run out of air! Even with my Wreck certification...

If the PADI, NAUI, or SSI recreational wreck courses don't provide these things, then they are a waste of money

Firstly, I've never done a 'wreck course' of any description, so my views may be biased anyway.
However, simply assuming that a cavern course will equip you for wreck penetration may not be the best of ideas. Caves/caverns, particularly those used on courses are generally stable and unchanging - wrecks are inherently unstable, and part of the interest is diving wrecks over a period of years and seeing the various changes occuring.
Personally I still think the best way to learn is by mentoring - simply spending time diving with others who have been at it for years and know the wreck you happen to be on. I still remember being led through the holds of the Breda, off Oban many years ago by a guy who knew the site well.
What would have been useful would have been a basic understanding of ship design and marine engineering - the differing types of engines, their structure etc. How to use information gained to identify a wreck. Where the information is held and how to access the various data-bases etc etc. Several years ago, I spent an entire dive completely baffled as to why I was diving on 'triangles' iin low vis when diving a new site. At the time I'd never run accross that particluar shape of boilers - the others had and the site was quickly narrowed down to a class of destroyer ( and hence the wreck). On well broken sites and more complete, knowing the layout of a wreck is very useful.
As to the lift bags, smb's etc they should be part of basic training and not special to wrecks.

 

[loosebits]

Firstly, I've never done a 'wreck course' of any description, so my views may be biased anyway.
However, simply assuming that a cavern course will equip you for wreck penetration may not be the best of ideas. Caves/caverns, particularly those used on courses are generally stable and unchanging - wrecks are inherently unstable, and part of the interest is diving wrecks over a period of years and seeing the various changes occuring.
Personally I still think the best way to learn is by mentoring - simply spending time diving with others who have been at it for years and know the wreck you happen to be on. I still remember being led through the holds of the Breda, off Oban many years ago by a guy who knew the site well.
What would have been useful would have been a basic understanding of ship design and marine engineering - the differing types of engines, their structure etc. How to use information gained to identify a wreck. Where the information is held and how to access the various data-bases etc etc. Several years ago, I spent an entire dive completely baffled as to why I was diving on 'triangles' iin low vis when diving a new site. At the time I'd never run accross that particluar shape of boilers - the others had and the site was quickly narrowed down to a class of destroyer ( and hence the wreck). On well broken sites and more complete, knowing the layout of a wreck is very useful.
As to the lift bags, smb's etc they should be part of basic training and not special to wrecks.

I agree. I am full cave certified and I've never gotten a wreck card. That being said I would be completely comfortable penetrating prepared wrecks like the big-O where many of the hazards have been removed prior to her sinking. On a "real" wreck, I would feel comfortable without the formal training if I had an experienced wreck diver to show me the ropes and help me understand the difference between diving in a formation that will be there longer than the US will vs a formation that will turn into a rubble pile in fifty years.

I would at least want a lot more experience in caves than I had at the time of my cavern certification before I extended my experience into a completely different environment.

 

[aue-mike]

If the PADI, NAUI, or SSI recreational wreck courses don't provide these things, then they are a waste of money

I never said they shouldn't offer instruction on these skills. But frankly, they are pretty basic and some of the skills should be taught in basic openwater. Further, the majority of these skills are shared by the cavern course. I was simply stating that there should be more offered to wreck diving instruction.
If you want to dive on stripped-down artificial reefs or think what I am talking about is analogous to learning the scientific names of flowers, then you probably won't be interested in this information. But this information separates someone who simply dives wrecks versus someone who is a wreck diver. Big difference.

 

[apeks74]

This is the typical BS that drives me nuts. This thread was started by Diver Mike saying he had no experience with Wreck Diving and a desire to learn. What this thread has become is who knows more, Florida Cave Divers or New England Wreck Divers. Thrown in is a bit of PADI VS NAUI VS TDI…..

Mike,
I am a novice when it comes to wreck diving and in no way want to assert myself as an expert.

If you want entry-level exposure to wreck diving, there are several classes that will give you an exposure. If you want to dive the Andrea Doria, you will need MUCH more training and experience. Having a card saying you are good does not make you good. Dive Boat Captains will encourage you to dive shallow, safer wrecks if they don’t know you. Once you have proven yourself, they will talk to you about more technical dives.

How you spend your money on training is up to you. If you learn only one new thing from an entry-level class and that is the “One Thing” that keeps you alive, it was worth it.

Have Fun
Dive Safe

 

[aue-mike]

This is the typical BS that drives me nuts. This thread was started by Diver Mike saying he had no experience with Wreck Diving and a desire to learn. What this thread has become is who knows more, Florida Cave Divers or New England Wreck Divers. Thrown in is a bit of PADI VS NAUI VS TDI…..

I guess I don't see it that way. I simply offered a few basic comments regarding what would be beneficial in a wreck diving course; much of it is not taught by any agency. Some of the examples I used was based on stuff I have learned over many years from veteran wreck divers, and IMHO would be beneficial in a class. Some of it is the "doh!" type stuff that is simple, yet valuable, and other stuff is tips and tricks that are not so obvious. Its not about skills for DORIA-level wrecks per se, but how to get the most out of your wreckdiving experience -- regardless of depth. I know when I was starting out I wished there was a book or class I could take to learn this sort of stuff.

I was not trying to bash any geographic area or agency. I simply think -- IMHO -- that perhaps divers should ask or expect a bit more from a wreckdiving class than is typically offered. That's all.

Part of my responses probably stems from the fact that I love to dive and explore shipwrecks. More than just going down and swimming over a hunk of rusty steel, but to know exactly what I am looking at, knowing where on a vessel I am at all times (regardless if the wreck is leveled debris or intact, and in 100-foot vis or 1-foot braille diving conditions), etc. If one is not at that level of "passion," then I agree you might not see what all the fuss is about.

My apologies if I upset anyone. I will keep my comments to myself in the future.

Cheers,
Mike