PADI vs NAUI

[Hoomi]

Wow. 44 pages of replies since August, 2003. You've got to give scubaboard one thing - we sure don't have short-attention span problems!

 

[Thalassamania]

YES!

Good for you!

Does that violate PADI standards? NO

Actually it does, that standard has been quoted and referenced in this thread repeatedly.

Would I lie about it? NO I would tell them why to their face and document it with PADI.

Good for you! But to do so you would have to apply for a standards waiver. That's the whole point. Under normal standards PADI Instructors do not have that right. It appears that you are in agreement with what I've been saying.

You can play word smith and amateur lawyer all day long but in the end, a PADI instructor has the right and obligation to not certify someone they feel in unsafe.

No they don't, as we have documented in PADI's own words, words that they "smithed."

Before you ask for direct quotes then please give me DIRECT LINE BY LINE QUOTES from the NAUI manual that say that they have the right to not certify. I have never read a NAUI manual so please enlighten me.

There is not need, NAUI stadards are MINIMUM standards and anything that they do not restrict you from doing you may do, no "mother-may-I," like PADI. As I observed earlier, that's a double edged sword.

I am willing to learn but it is obvious that you hate PADI and that is your right but to play word games is not helpful in my opinion.

It is not a question of what I like or dislike. I was specifically asked what in PADI Standards prevented me from accepting the standards, and I gave several answers, this requirement is one of them. If answering that question is equivalent to "hatred," so be it, I think it is just pointing out the unacceptable.

I had one of my first students that passed with flying colors all the required skills and I certified him but I told him due to his attitude that I wouldn't want to dive with him. According to PADI standards I had to certify him and had no justification for not doing so other than he was a jerk.

There you go. If you had been a NAUI instructor you could have withheld certification, and I would not certify anyone that I would no be comfortable having dive as my son's buddy. It appears that we have different values systems.

Now if he had exhibited an unsafe, IN MY OPINION - and YES PADI Instructors are actually allowed to use their judgment - then I would not have certified him and my shop owner and Course Director both agreed with me.

So, he was a fine diver ... he was just a but-head that you did not like? In that case I would have certified him too. I guess that's why PADI has this rule, in their experience their instructors can be trusted to overlook personal animus? Now, the "power" to not certify that you, your shop owner and your CD are assuming that you, in fact (see earlier standards quotes) does not exist. You gotta worry about an organization that seem to be riddled, all the way to the top, with people you have appear to have not read the standards that they are supposed to abide by.

I'm under the impression that my (PADI) instructor would not certify anyone they thought would not be safe ... I know that to mean if they had the right attitude, as many more training sessions as needed ... and I think also dropping them from his class if he thought their attitude would not allow them to be a safe diver.

Look back at the standards quotes that were posted. Read them and think for a moment. You impression may well be correct, but all that would prove is that you instructor, like so many sounding off in this thread, do not know the standards of the agency that they are supposed to follow. What other standards are they ignorant of?

 

[rigdiver]

NAUI Inst's still believe in the "Loved One Concept." Meaning if you would not want a particular student to dive with your wife, son, daughter, husband, sister then you do not HAVE to certify them. I've done this once in 30+ years of teaching and HQ backed me up on it. BBB was called and I used NAUI standards to get that issue dropped.

 

[Blackwood]

Do the PADI standards define mastery? If not, is it therefore open to instructor discretion?

 

[D_B]

are you saying that a PADI instructor has to take and train anyone to completion that signs up and pays for a class ?
because I would think the instructor can decide who he teaches to certification

 

[Thalassamania]

Do the PADI standards define mastery? If not, is it therefore open to instructor discretion?

Yes PADI defines mastery as someting well south of what I (or a dictionary) would use as a definition: "During the Confined Water Dives, mastery is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of an Open Water Diver." Doesn't give you a whole lot of room to claim a lack of mastery, does it?

are you saying that a PADI instructor has to take and train anyone to completion that signs up and pays for a class ? because I would think the instructor can decide who he teaches to certification

I don't think that you have to take any and all students, but once enrolled in the class, if they exhibit "PADI Mastery," then you must certify them (or, I assume, apply for a Standards Waiver).

 

[D_B]

just enrolled? .. I would think that they would have to complete the class .. and if that person has an unsafe attitude, the instructor would find that out before completion and he could drop them from class and not have to certify them

and ... "as would be expected of an Open Water Diver" ... are those expectations spelled out also? because that seems to be a way to impose reasonable expectations on your student

 

[alibi 2]

very interesting replies..my hubby is a cert. instructor for PADI,NAUI,TDI and HSA...i know if he has the choice he prefers NAUI..he always points out that when teaching PADI skills have to be taught in a certain order and if the student has a problem with a particular skill they can't progress until they master the skill they are stuck on...I work with him as his DM for NAUI and HSA... NAUI allows the instructor more choice when a student is stuck on a skill. He can move on with the student and come back to the skill they are having a problem with...i like this as many times the student just needs a little more self confidence and if allowed to move on a majority of the time after a little more confidence they have no problem with the skill they were stuck on...

NAUI and PADI require that a student always blow bubbles when the regulator is out of they're mouth..and which ever method is used I have seen all instructors introduce the idea of taking the mask off my having the students remove the mask while standing in the shallow end of the pool with scuba and put they're face in the water and keep breathing..hubby teaches the students that when they remove the mask underwater to breath in thru the mouth and exhale thru the nose..this seems to be the most comfortable method for preventing the water going in the nose and causing a panicked feeling, and by the time they get the mask back on they have already almost cleared it....I really haven't seen a student that rips off the mask and puts it back on in seconds...they do a lot of breathing and even when the mask is back on its full of water so they are still breathing...

NAUI requires the skill of wearing and dumping a weight belt...many remote dive vacation sites rent weight belts so its good to know how to use them. NAUI teaches the buddy breathing skill of sharing one regulator...and the basic NAUI class teaches rescue skills, including some self rescue...these skill include rescue breathing, bringing a unconscious skin and scuba diver up from the bottom, and doing rescue breathing while removing equipment from both the uncon. diver and the rescue diver...I know that when we teach NAUI rescue diver and we have PADI divers it is more work because they have to be taught skills that the NAUI diver learned in their basic class..

NAUI requires a full equip. removal and replacement on the pool bottom...and a skin dive along with the ocean scuba dives...I like this skill in the cold rougher waters of northern calif..

PADI is much better than NAUI at promoting their organization and they do more resort cert. and resort diving.

Hubby does a lot of refresher classes for PADI divers in his NAUI basic classes...I have heard a lot (and i mean ALOT) of the PADI refreshers stating how much more comfortable they felt as divers after going thru the NAUI Course and they felt they learned more diving skills in the NAUI Course...I'm not saying that is true, I have not been a PADI certified diver but i am repeating what divers who have been thru both basic course have told us....

The important thing is that you find a good instructor no matter which method you choose...Don't shop cost ,,shop Quality of education..

 

[Thalassamania]

just enrolled? .. I would think that they would have to complete the class .. and if that person has an unsafe attitude, the instructor would find that out before completion and he could drop them from class and not have to certify them

and ... "as would be expected of an Open Water Diver" ... are those expectations spelled out also? because that seems to be a way to impose reasonable expectations on your student

"Just enrolled" fair enough ... the standards do talk about having of issue a cert. if they meet all standards. Tossing them out of class before that happens is, I guess, an alternative.

very interesting replies..my hubby is a cert. instructor for PADI,NAUI,TDI and HSA...

The point is that it is not a 'NAUI" class that your husband teaches, it is a class that meets NAUI minimum standards AND that meets what your husband feels is required for the particular situation. NAUI trusts his judgment on the matter. There, in my mind, is the key difference between the agencies.

The problem, however, with NAUI is that a lot of NAUI Instructors, unlike your husband, do little more than teach a PADI course with a couple of extra skills and an extra dive. I blame that on the change from the large branch ITCs where candidates were taught and evaluated by dozens of staff to the basically private ITCs that are now the norm where candidates are exposed to just a few staff.

 

[D_B]

Of course, even if you do drop a student from your class that you think has an unsafe attitude , that does not stop him from taking a class from some other instructor.

While you are relying on the skill of whatever instructor you chose, you are also relying on his moral commitment to only turn out safe divers .
... I think that is why I believe that the instructor is as important, or more important, than whatever agency he teaches for.

Look at Walters sticky on how to find a good instructor, and if you find one that meets most all of those criteria, then your going to get a good one