PADI vs NAUI

[Bogtrotter]

US Navy Seals use the NAUI standard- it is the best bar none But seriously does it really matter what standard is used if you have a good instructor? My only beef with PADI is that they introduced crash course weekend certifications, which has kind of lowered the bar in terms of diving competency for certification.

 

[Cacia]

Something that has always bothered me, is that many PADI dive shops circulate the exams behind the scenes. I've known Instructors that can't calculate a 15% tip....if you know what I mean. But hey, you work in the shop, the exam is right there in a file. I couldnt figure out for a while, how some stoner/doofuses were getting 100% on the physics. They memorize the actual questions. Switch variables around, they are helpless.

I guess I'll get kicked off the board now

It's a buisness to sell, who are we kidding? Does NAUI sell materials on the same scale?

I personally think that PADI is more than adequate for recreational divers, because at some point, people understand the forces at play and figure out for themselves "if I don't do this correctly, I could end up in real trouble"

The PADI model is to keep the open water divers buying.....having tough instructors that occasionally reject paying customers doesn't keep that model optimized. You can't be "the way the world dives" AND have the highest standards. Is that bad? I don't think so, more people introduced to the ocean is almost always good. Some people want diving to be elite, and it doesn't need to be, at the entry level. I do think operators take unfit divers to sites that are over their abilty, too deep, too much current, etc.
That is for the diver to figure out, if he wants to survive.

In some ways, the more you enforce standards, the less people think for themselves. All those "trust divers" are where things fall apart in the water.

 

[BDSC]

Some people want diving to be elite,

How true! I've found that attitude with a lot of folks. I don't know if it makes them feel good to think they are doing something that is "risky" or "challenging". It's like each time they get in the water they walk a fine line of life vs. death. I have never thought of recreational diving as being elite in any way. It can be done by folks who are young, old, fat slobs, in-shape people, etc. Diving to me is quite easy with very little risk. Pretty much anyone can do it unless they have some medical or mental condition that would prevent it.

 

[Cacia]

we used to have this old guy around here that wrote IN ALL CAPS "Diving is EASY--crippled can do it it, children can do it, WOMEN can do it!"

But yea, do you want your kids diving or surfing at some break neck shorebreak...I know my answer!
I was so happy to get through the teens in Hawaii with my kids necks intact.

 

[Thalassamania]

Something that has always bothered me, is that many PADI dive shops circulate the exams behind the scenes. I've known Instructors that can't calculate a 15% tip....if you know what I mean. But hey, you work in the shop, the exam is right there in a file. I couldnt figure out for a while, how some stoner/doofuses were getting 100% on the physics. They memorize the actual questions. Switch variables around, they are helpless.

While I'm sure that NAUI exams get around, the CD can add questions or even an entire section to it as well as switch variables around.

Of course, even if you do drop a student from your class that you think has an unsafe attitude , that does not stop him from taking a class from some other instructor.

While you are relying on the skill of whatever instructor you chose, you are also relying on his moral commitment to only turn out safe divers .
... I think that is why I believe that the instructor is as important, or more important, than whatever agency he teaches for.

Look at Walters sticky on how to find a good instructor, and if you find one that meets most all of those criteria, then your going to get a good one

Not if, as in the question we are examining here, an agency does not permit them to be. In that case it is the agency, not the instructor.

How true! I've found that attitude with a lot of folks. I don't know if it makes them feel good to think they are doing something that is "risky" or "challenging". It's like each time they get in the water they walk a fine line of life vs. death. I have never thought of recreational diving as being elite in any way. It can be done by folks who are young, old, fat slobs, in-shape people, etc. Diving to me is quite easy with very little risk. Pretty much anyone can do it unless they have some medical or mental condition that would prevent it.

I agee with you, but I think you need to add, "with proper training." Clearly , "Pretty much anyone can do it unless they have some medical or mental condition that would prevent it," does not mean without any training what-so-ever, so the question then is how much training is required to properly prepare a student and to assure sufficient knowledge that results in the sort of informed consent that would pass Human Subjects Committee muster (which is what I consider the moral and responsibility line that should be crossed). Neither of those have anything to do with doing something that is "risky" or "challenging," in fact quite the opposite, it has to do with reducing risk or challenge as much as possible.

BTW: The SEALS do not use NAUI standards to define their program, their program is theirs, but since it exceeds (by a whole lot) NAUI standards they can issue NAUI certifications solely as a convenience for their graduates, much as many AAUS programs do.

 

[Cacia]

I'd love to see numbers on diver deaths before certification agencies... do they even have those stats?
I could imagine them actually being lower because I know the types of divers my parents were, who they dived with, before people began getting certed just to fill tanks.
I can remember them making wetsuits with newspapers and neopreme cement...
Divers built gear and their skill-sets from the ground up, there was a logical sequence when you began without a bc
Lots of old school Hawaiians scuba dive/hunt all the time and are not certified (how many of them die?)
Seems it was usually tourists (or local freedivers)

 

[BDSC]

I agee with you, but I think you need to add, "with proper training."

Absolutely!

 

[Cacia]

Many of the people I dived with on our boat, even in the last few years are not certed by anybody...some of the best divers, in fact
I would not want to want to tell them they had not satisfied informed consent (or that it's against the standards to take their tank off and crawl under rocks)

Pretty soon, the state will need to cert you for swimming, it's happening!

http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/22/river-swimming-without-life-ve

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

US Navy Seals use the NAUI standard

As much as I take pride in my association with NAUI, I'm not sure that's a true statement. The Seals have a different mission, and train to different standards than recreational divers do. I'm not certain about it, but I daresay the Navy has its own set of training standards that apply to the Seals ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

I'd love to see numbers on diver deaths before certification agencies... do they even have those stats?
I could imagine them actually being lower because I know the types of divers my parents were, who they dived with, before people began getting certed just to fill tanks.
I can remember them making wetsuits with newspapers and neopreme cement...
Divers built gear and their skill-sets from the ground up, there was a logical sequence when you began without a bc
Lots of old school Hawaiians scuba dive/hunt all the time and are not certified (how many of them die?)
Seems it was usually tourists (or local freedivers)

There were very few fatalities in the early days, fatalities peaked in the late 1970s. I have always felt that was as a result of the intersection at the time of non-water people being recruited into the sport and instructors being created by nothing more that paying a small fee (training accidents showed an even steeper rise than overall accidents). In the early days it was water people that took up diving, ocean swimmers, surfers, free divers, sailors and such. In most cases they naturals and really did only need to learn to not hold their breath.

Many of the people I dived with on our boat, even in the last few years are not certed by anybody...some of the best divers, in fact
I would not want to want to tell them they had not satisfied informed consent (or that it's against the standards to take their tank off and crawl under rocks)

Pretty soon, the state will need to cert you for swimming, it's happening!

River-Swimming Without Life Vest Now Illegal Near Seattle - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

Most of the folks in the old days were either already at the level of informed consent or could reach it with a short conversation or a few minutes of reading, reading that they were interested in and happy to do. That was the way that I learned and my family learned. I have to scan it, I just came across a photo of me working with my mom, helping her with her mask back when I was about nine.