PADI vs NAUI

[BDSC]

I will continue to read and ponder these things but for now I must go start the grill because I am about to throw a great big porterhouse on it with a baked potato smothered with butter and sour cream and maybe a salad with Thousand Island! But my mind with still be here on the great debate.

 

[BoltSnap]

BDSC,

Can you add a big pitcher of very cold ice tea for me please? I like my steak medium please.

 

[BDSC]

BDSC,

Can you add a big pitcher of very cold ice tea for me please?

It's gotta be sweet tea here in the south but I can do it!

 

[Walter]

There is no law that you have to be certified to dive, so why do you care if he is unsafe from a "bad attitude," as opposed to lack of knowledge?
What if he has the "right" attitude and he weighs 400 pounds...why is it your business?

If someone with an unsafe attitude wants to risk their life, I believe they have every right to do so. If some weighing 400 lbs wants to risk their life diving, I believe they have every right to do so. I will not try to stop either one of them. On the other hand, I won't help either one of them achieve that goal. It's not my job to protect you from yourself. It's also not my job to help you kill yourself. You are totally on your own.

I don't see why the person's attitude shold be any of the Instructor's business, when it is not even a legal requirement to be certified in order to dive.
What if they are an alcoholic or smoke pot? I'm just pointing out that an attitude is no more risky than many other variables.

It's only my business if you choose to involve me by taking my class.

I guess, on further reflection, it is none of my business if Walter wants to not certify someone.

True, but I don't mind answering.

Three months later he had a DCS hit and just under 6 months later he died while attempting a free ascent from over 110 ft.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[oahu_diver]

Sounds like some people drank the NAUI kool aid. As a PADI instructor, I will NOT certify someone that I feel would be a hazard to themselves or someone else. I know the PADI standards ... and if someone is unsafe, they won't master the skills with me.

 

[Thalassamania]

Are you saying that if faced with someone who mastered all the skills fine but was reckless (as in the earlier example) you would lie about their skill performance to keep them from being certified or are you saying that anyone who mastered all the skills is by definition a safe diver, to whit: an unsafe diver could not have mastered them?

 

[AggieDad]

Are you saying that if faced with someone who mastered all the skills fine but was reckless (as in the earlier example) you would lie about their skill performance to keep them from being certified or are you saying that anyone who mastered all the skills is by definition a safe diver, to whit: an unsafe diver could not have mastered them?

YES! Does that violate PADI standards? NO Would I lie about it? NO I would tell them why to their face and document it with PADI.
You can play word smith and amateur lawyer all day long but in the end, a PADI instructor has the right and obligation to not certify someone they feel in unsafe. Before you ask for direct quotes then please give me DIRECT LINE BY LINE QUOTES from the NAUI manual that say that they have the right to not certify. I have never read a NAUI manual so please enlighten me. I am willing to learn but it is obvious that you hate PADI and that is your right but to play word games is not helpful in my opinion.
I had one of my first students that passed with flying colors all the required skills and I certified him but I told him due to his attitude that I wouldn't want to dive with him. According to PADI standards I had to certify him and had no justification for not doing so other than he was a jerk. Now if he had exhibited an unsafe, IN MY OPINION - and YES PADI Instructors are actually allowed to use their judgment - then I would not have certified him and my shop owner and Course Director both agreed with me.

 

[Walter]

give me DIRECT LINE BY LINE QUOTES from the NAUI manual that say that they have the right to not certify.

Everyone has a right not to certify unless that right is taken away. PADI takes it away with "you must....issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the preformance requirements." NAUI and other agencies such as SEI do not take it away with similar rules in their standards.

NAUI's Credo states, "NAUI Instructors are qualified professional educators who are granted academic freedom to teach diving in any reasonable manner as long as NAUI standards and policies are met."

 

[D_B]

I'm under the impression that my (PADI) instructor would not certify anyone they thought would not be safe ... I know that to mean if they had the right attitude, as many more training sessions as needed ... and I think also dropping them from his class if he thought their attitude would not allow them to be a safe diver

Of course that allows them to take a class from someone else, but I would think that an attitude like one that would convince an instructor that person would be unsafe, would show itself to other instructors

 

[Cacia]

they thought would not be safe

That is a phrase that causes me a lot of frustration....it is very subjective, and often what society or a person deem as "unsafe" is in fact, less significant than other behaviors or diving practices that are "frowned upon" by some appointed group

A really fit person with the wrong attitude is probably less likely to die diving than the "obedient" person that has chosen an unhealthy lifestyle.....person A is just treated less favorably by the SCUBA dive community. You really see this when you compare the freediving community and the opposite judgements they make about divers (smokers, overweight, etc) I find the SCUBA community very paternalistic about people's "attitudes" compared to other instruction, which is ironic because it's not like you might land a plane on somebody's house. Imagine a rock climber or a mountain bike rider getting lectured about their "attitude"...not so much. The SCUBA community is pretty judgemental, I would say.

Managing your own risk is not encouraged by PADI, I'd say. I don't really know about NAUI, my cert was so long ago.
It's almost like Apple vs Microsoft. Jobbs says "we know best, and there is only one way to do it"....Microsoft provides some flexibilty, etc.