PADI vs NAUI

[Blackwood]

:

1. Is the student to be certified to dive unsupervised (without Divemaster or Instructor supervision)?

Hmm. How does that play into the 'what they need to know' equation?

Is the assumption that a supervisor will always be available and will never suffer an emergency him or herself?

Is the ability to complete a dive from whatever point and potentially rescue someone requisite, and if so, what is left out of 'supervised only' training?

 

[Thalassamania]

Regarding a full ditch and recovery. That was a challenge for me. I would perpetually throw my gear into my grandfather's apartment complex's pool and do it over and over again, until I got it quickly and easily (my Dad also required me to do this). And while this may not be a skill I will use everyday. When I accidentally got a piece of monofilament wrapped around my tank valve, and was able to easily whip off my rig, get the monofilament off, and don it again in under 30 seconds, I was glad I had practiced a zillion times in a pool.

I think the point of this is that the argument Thalassamania et al are making is that the mastery of these skills were once the norm. This norm was not established so that divers could do sat diving at hundreds of feet or go deco, they were the norm for all diving. A lot of these skills apply to situations that most of us hope to never be in. But, I personally would rather know what to do just in case (and be able to calmly do it), than be the the one in a million who gets myself into a bad situation and isn't comfortable getting out of it.

Effectively, training is about balancing risk. There is inherent risk in the sport, the question we as divers, and consumers of the product put out by PADI, NAUI, etc have to ask ourselves is what is the cost/benefit? I personally feel that the couple hundred hours of training (not to mention my Dad's tests) I have gone through was worth every (frequently frustrating and repetitive) moment and every penny, if it means that I survive, or am able to save another in a situation.

It is not just a question of cost/benefit. In my mind it is more a question of who pays the cost and for whose benefit?

 

[scootsity]

Excellent point, Thalassamania.

 

[endurodog]

Effectively, training is about balancing risk. There is inherent risk in the sport, the question we as divers, and consumers of the product put out by PADI, NAUI, etc have to ask ourselves is what is the cost/benefit? I personally feel that the couple hundred hours of training (not to mention my Dad's tests) I have gone through was worth every (frequently frustrating and repetitive) moment and every penny, if it means that I survive, or am able to save another in a situation.

There in lays the real complex issues of this question. Do we train to the standards of the "Got to know everything" or "Theres a tank go figure it out"? The biggest question I have with all of this is what issues are we trying to correct if we start training everything? Is there an elevated accident rate? Are people getting hurt or dead becaue of the training we have now? Have accident rates sky rocketed because of a problem with training? Have they gone up at all.

Certifying agencies are in a business and are trying to certify people. The more people that are certified has some positive benifits for diving as a whole. More equipment, more political clout for our issues, more choices of dive destinations, ect ect.

How do these changes some are wanting effect dive numbers, desire of people to even want to certify, cost, ect.

It's a complicated picture and so often on SB I only see one side addressed.

 

[Thalassamania]

There in lays the real complex issues of this question. Do we train to the standards of the "Got to know everything" or "Theres a tank go figure it out"? The biggest question I have with all of this is what issues are we trying to correct if we start training everything? Is there an elevated accident rate? Are people getting hurt or dead becaue of the training we have now? Have accident rates sky rocketed because of a problem with training? Have they gone up at all.

Certifying agencies are in a business and are trying to certify people. The more people that are certified has some positive benifits for diving as a whole. More equipment, more political clout for our issues, more choices of dive destinations, ect ect.

How do these changes some are wanting effect dive numbers, desire of people to even want to certify, cost, ect.

It's a complicated picture and so often on SB I only see one side addressed.

I think that you are getting it wrong. When you cut standards to certify more people you do them and the industry a disservice because you guarantee a huge early-drop-out rate. With more training and comfort there will be more rather than less active divers even though there may be fewer entry level manuals and certifications sold. More active divers translates into many more options and more/less expensive "second round" items like dry suits, can lights, and cameras.

 

[TMHeimer]

Regarding the last two opposing thoughts, I don't know if it makes a whole lot of difference how much OW training really affects divers continuing and being serious about it. This is a well-discussed topic, and I doubt we will ever get any meaningful stats on who continues on and why. I would think if it's something you really want to do you will continue to dive regardless of what initial training you got. Perhaps you will seek further training if you feel insecure. I could be wrong.

 

[Brendon]

That is at the base of this discussion: is current O/W certification worth the plastic it is printed on; and if it is not, why not? The thesis has been advanced that it is because the, "way the world learns to dive" has changed and sucks; and what's worse is that NAUI has., in large part, followed the path down the same rathole.

To some extent I agree with that statement, though it seems unfair because NAUI is more then some corporate office. A body of diving professionals, that I don't believe as a whole follow the same path as PADI. They are the ones who have lowered their standards, yes NAUI has moved in the same direction to some extent. More of a knee jerk response to the competitions changes if anything. With that said we still have the edge with the ability to teach as we see fit, adhering to the base standards is pretty easy these days. Though I still run a 6 day class at a price of 695.00 per student regardless of what the competition is doing... For that matter, I don't believe its the certification companies fault we are were we are today. I blame the dive shop price wars. At 149.00 per student you would have no choice but to drop the standards to keep your instructors employed and make any money. Those instructors that have moved up into the corporate side of things I'm sure had that in mind when changes have been made. My prediction for the next 5yrs is. 99.00 and a 2 day class. Elearning then pool and dive. Time spent with instructor, maybe 6-8hrs max... Or is that already happening??? I bet it is, somewhere...

 

[Rhenry]

PADI Two (2) Day Weekend Open Water Scuba Diver Courses, Lessons and Classes Tampa Florida (Fla)

 

[Thalassamania]

NAUI standards still let you run your class, your way. But how many new instructors come out of their ITC with the ability to do anything but run the "standard" NAUI class, using NAUI texts, NAUI exams, NAUI skill lists, etc.? Where I lay primary blame at NAUI's door is for dismantling the Branch System and replacing the big Branch ITCs with on demand onefers, that is what lowered NAUI's courses in my mind. Yeah, running those big ITCs was difficult, and we never made a dime at it though it took a decade or more of staffing to be ready to run one yourself, and you might never, ever, even get the chance.

 

[endurodog]

I think that you are getting it wrong. When you cut standards to certify more people you do them and the industry a disservice because you guarantee a huge early-drop-out rate. With more training and comfort there will be more rather than less active divers even though there may be fewer entry level manuals and certifications sold. More active divers translates into many more options and more/less expensive "second round" items like dry suits, can lights, and cameras.

I'm not getting it wrong, I'm on a different page. My question is what are we trying to correct with more training? What is the end goal? If I assume from your post that your goal is to keep more people in diving through more training on the front end?

This is a catch 22 argument. Your saying with more training more people would stay in diving ( I don't agree with that) but less people will take the intial class (in my opinion) so we are kind of left where we were?????

So what is your goal of more training????