PADI tables finally going away?
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Hatul
Contributor
Tables will make a nice footnote in the history of diving, but they are obviously not being utilized by the diving public at this point. It's time to for the agencies still holding on to the facade to stop deceiving themselves that inflicting tables on students gives them a better idea about on-gassing/off-gassing physiology. It's easy enough to see your gas loading on any modern dive computer and then to see the load decrease during your surface interval.
Teaching them how to use the GEAR that they will actually be using only makes sense, which is probably why some oppose it!Too many divers have no idea what to do when their alarm goes off or how to track their dives since NO ONE HAS TAUGHT THEM. That's the real travesty: we refuse to teach these important skills.
Tables should be reserved for those who WANT to learn them as an add on or even as a specialty. Yes, you will need them if you ever get into tech diving, but very few go that route. As for the lame argument about what to do if your computer fails... well, you will need to do the same thing as when your SPG fails or if your reg free flows: end the dive! You're bound to find a rental at most dive resorts/charters.
I agree with this point of view. I've never used a table to dive, though I know how to use one. While it's important to understand the concept of residual nitrogen and some basic decompression concepts, dropping the tables from basic OW requirements simplifies the course and it's important to open the sport to as many new people as possible.
I agree that tables could be made into a small optional course for those interested.
Adam
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Thanks Adam! Some are able to see the light and adjust. Others simply want to cajole, castigate and intimidate.
ScubaSteve
Wow.....what a DB
gndpdr
Guest
now that's a brilliant idea lets lower the quality of the basic diver as well charge the person for a course to understand how and why things happen to said named person while breathing air/nitrox/or other mixed gas then sell them a computer that they may or may not have a dam clue how it works so based on this idea if we lower the quality we can get more people and kinda train them to dive and sell them lot's of stuff
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So, people who disagree with you are in the dark and can't adjust? Crap, Pete....It's called a different point of view. The personal attacks don't really help your case.
If you don't want to or are unable to teach tables...don't. But, please tell me how my teaching the tables, with a solid intro lecture on computers, would be inferior to you teaching in depth function of a single computer which the students may or (more likely) may not use after class.
You say students will forget the tables and I know you're right. I used a Cobra AI computer for two years. A customer asked me for some help with his Cobra a few weeks ago on a boat and it took me 20 minutes to remember how to use the damn thing since I hadn't used one in over three years. After being away from the tables, it took five minutes to figure them out using the simple directions printed on each table. So, let's put that red herring to be, shall we?
If you don't want to or are unable to teach tables...don't. But, please tell me how my teaching the tables, with a solid intro lecture on computers, would be inferior to you teaching in depth function of a single computer which the students may or (more likely) may not use after class.
You say students will forget the tables and I know you're right. I used a Cobra AI computer for two years. A customer asked me for some help with his Cobra a few weeks ago on a boat and it took me 20 minutes to remember how to use the damn thing since I hadn't used one in over three years. After being away from the tables, it took five minutes to figure them out using the simple directions printed on each table. So, let's put that red herring to be, shall we?
There is a pervasive opinion in this thread that recreational scuba diving has to be possible for everybody. Just the same way there are physical and medical reasons why some people simply can't dive, there are also intellectual reasons.
In fact many threads on Scubaboard are precisely about whether we have simplified courses to the point where people with severely limited intelligence are able to pass a course, get a C-Card and now become a liability to themselves and other people.
Millions of people from all walks of life, all over the world, have done Open Water courses with the different certification agencies and the vast majority have done knowledge reviews and passed an exam including dive tables.
If they do a PADI OWD course and can't pass the OWD knowledge reviews and final exam and have not mastered the RDP, they won't be certified as OW Divers but will probably get a Scuba Diver C-Card and will have to dive under the supervision of a dive profesional.
So if any other agency wants to give C-Cards to people who don't have the intellectual wherewithals to master the RDP and do some simple calculations, maybe they should be handng out equivalents to the Scuba Diver certification and not the OWD.
After having exploded the myth in a previous post on this thread that PADI doesn't require its instructors to discuss and explain how PDCs work, the differences between decompression models and algorithms (if they are going to use a PDC and dive with people who have other PDCs, they better know what an algorithm is and what it means) and how to choose and use them and in fact highly recommends that newly certified divers acquire one, it surprises me to read over and over again that
Students love it when the tables are explained to them by an instructor who knows how to make them fun to learn.
Last year at a large Dive Center with about eight instructors. I ended up doing all the RDP classes, with students from 12 to 72 years of age. Sure, a few people were apprehensive when they looked at the RDP for the first time but when they found out that everything they needed to know was on the tables, were able to see at a glance how to find a safe surface interval before going on the next dive and how long and how deep they can do the next one and to do each calculation in under a minute, you now have happy students that learned something and feel they mastered something actually using their brains.
I also do the Enriched Air Specialty classes (yup, more theory) using the NOAA tables. In this course, students get really interested in PDCs and start to look at diving from the perspective of pressure rather than depth.
I am opposed to the idea of
In fact many threads on Scubaboard are precisely about whether we have simplified courses to the point where people with severely limited intelligence are able to pass a course, get a C-Card and now become a liability to themselves and other people.
Millions of people from all walks of life, all over the world, have done Open Water courses with the different certification agencies and the vast majority have done knowledge reviews and passed an exam including dive tables.
If they do a PADI OWD course and can't pass the OWD knowledge reviews and final exam and have not mastered the RDP, they won't be certified as OW Divers but will probably get a Scuba Diver C-Card and will have to dive under the supervision of a dive profesional.
So if any other agency wants to give C-Cards to people who don't have the intellectual wherewithals to master the RDP and do some simple calculations, maybe they should be handng out equivalents to the Scuba Diver certification and not the OWD.
After having exploded the myth in a previous post on this thread that PADI doesn't require its instructors to discuss and explain how PDCs work, the differences between decompression models and algorithms (if they are going to use a PDC and dive with people who have other PDCs, they better know what an algorithm is and what it means) and how to choose and use them and in fact highly recommends that newly certified divers acquire one, it surprises me to read over and over again that
, that
, in a nutshell that tables "are irrelevant and complicated" and "computers are fundamental and easy".
Students love it when the tables are explained to them by an instructor who knows how to make them fun to learn.
Last year at a large Dive Center with about eight instructors. I ended up doing all the RDP classes, with students from 12 to 72 years of age. Sure, a few people were apprehensive when they looked at the RDP for the first time but when they found out that everything they needed to know was on the tables, were able to see at a glance how to find a safe surface interval before going on the next dive and how long and how deep they can do the next one and to do each calculation in under a minute, you now have happy students that learned something and feel they mastered something actually using their brains.
I also do the Enriched Air Specialty classes (yup, more theory) using the NOAA tables. In this course, students get really interested in PDCs and start to look at diving from the perspective of pressure rather than depth.
I am opposed to the idea of
When teaching BOW, I don't know what each diver is going to do afterwards with their education. What I do know is that I am supposed to give them the most solid foundation possible on which to build their further education as divers if they so choose.
I disagree. Teach redundancy. Teach students to wear either two PDCs from the same manufacturer (an expensive yet ideal option) or a PDC and a dive watch (remember to teach them the difficult art of BEZEL MANAGEMENT), an SPG and yes, you guessed it, the tables which they take with them in their BCD pocket. That way, if their PDC fails they can continue the dive.
ucfdiver
Contributor
What on earth do tables teach you that computers dont? All tables are doing are giving you an oversimplified version of what a computer calculates. I bet students learn a lot more about offgassing by watching a computer drop the n2 loading as they come shallower than knowing they're in "group a".
If you want to explain fast and slow tissues to OW students, then go ahead, that's the only way they'll really understand either the table or computer. Until you explain WHY, both are just numbers that mean nothing to a student. Teaching square profile tables these days just seems silly to me these days, with ratio deco (for min deco) strategies as well as computers out there.
Personally, I don't think computers are worth the money, but then again, I don't find naui/padi tables all that useful either. If I were an instructor, I would contact Andrew and ask if I can purchase or use the slides that pertain to recreational diving @ this link Groups - Unified Team Diving. I've yet to see a more clear explanation of what's going on than how Andrew spells it out in the online course.
I'll admit...I don't remember how to use NAUI tables from my class, I'd have to read the directions if I were to want to go back and use them. I don't own a computer, either. Simple, easy to remember rules of thumb make planning a dive a LOT easier. If I'm diving with someone who insists on using tables, I'll use these, where I get credit for doing a proper ascent instead of just a 2min safety stop. http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html
If you want to explain fast and slow tissues to OW students, then go ahead, that's the only way they'll really understand either the table or computer. Until you explain WHY, both are just numbers that mean nothing to a student. Teaching square profile tables these days just seems silly to me these days, with ratio deco (for min deco) strategies as well as computers out there.
Personally, I don't think computers are worth the money, but then again, I don't find naui/padi tables all that useful either. If I were an instructor, I would contact Andrew and ask if I can purchase or use the slides that pertain to recreational diving @ this link Groups - Unified Team Diving. I've yet to see a more clear explanation of what's going on than how Andrew spells it out in the online course.
I'll admit...I don't remember how to use NAUI tables from my class, I'd have to read the directions if I were to want to go back and use them. I don't own a computer, either. Simple, easy to remember rules of thumb make planning a dive a LOT easier. If I'm diving with someone who insists on using tables, I'll use these, where I get credit for doing a proper ascent instead of just a 2min safety stop. http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html
gndpdr
Guest
have a look at the following link ..once there click on the tab for the "dive computer" button
Dive Tables
Dive Tables
All dives carry a risk that the people making it will suffer some sort of decompression stress
either sub-clinical or full-blown. The likelihood of getting bent depends on the variables; Who, When and How more than constants such as the type of decompression model used. And of course, depending on variables produces variable results.
Once we accept that getting bent is a real probability albeit with a variable risk we can begin to manage our diving in a realistic way and work at cutting the unpredictability to an acceptable level. None of us wants to take a ride in a recompression chamber, but its not something we can ignore or be frightened by.
Off-gasing from a dive every dive consists of two phases that can be broadly defined as ascent beyond the off-gassing ceiling and surface off-gassing or, less formally, in-water decompression followed by a surface interval. Whether formal or not, we cannot say a dive has been successful until both phases are completed and there are no complaints of joint pain, paralysis, skin rash or any other signs or symptoms caused by decompression stress. Doppler testing has shown bubbles persisting in divers for as long as several days, so the waiting period is probably longer than many of us admit to.
Being successful is a broad combination of several factors including education, scepticism, conservatism, adequate health and fitness, adopting and following diving practices that conform to an accepted norm, and, maybe, some luck.
Luck will always be an influence in the outcome of your diving. By concentrating some considerable effort on the other factors, the percentage of luck in your personal equations can be kept to an absolute minimum.
Instructors will suggest various strategies to draw up ascent schedules that keep everyone safe. These may include wearing a PDC and/or using existing tables such as those from DSAT (PADI), Buhlmann, BSAC, US Navy, etc.
An instructor should employ combination strategies that consist of teaching the tables backed up by a PDC or a PDC backed up by the tables. This way is the student leaves the class with an understanding that there are several workable strategies to manage decompression
Students are guided towards making desicions that conform to an acceptable norm arrived at by their certifying agency, their instructor or an amalgam of both.
An optimal profile is one where every practical opportunity to make the divers probability of getting decompression sickness close to 0 is taken. An aggressive profile ,on the other hand, is one where decompression either in-water or on the surface or both are accelerated. In other words, at least one factor pushing for a conservative approach has been swept aside or ignored.
When a diver graduates a diving course and begins to plan his or her own dives, they will typically follow pretty much the same general format that was presented during their course. By dive eight or nine post class, its normal for some slight changes to have taken place. The Human Factor usually pushes the needle closer to one as time passes. There comes a time when their experience as divers begins to over-rule caution. Complacency causes small leaks to appear in the dyke. Water starts to trickle in. The hope is that they notice something is going on and smarten up before a full-on breach washes them away. Over time, some level of complacency almost always sets in. If we could see probability of getting bent (PGB) as a straight line with 0 (no chance) at one end and 1 (100 percent certain) at the other, we might see what happens a little clearer.
Zero probability of getting bent means not diving. For the sake of illustration, lets say that for every 100 times that profile is dove, between three and four people get bent. Thats a 0.035 PGB, and thats high but no higher than for many tables accepted in the diving community.
It means their probability pointer is shifted closer to 1. But they get away with it for a while and this begins to insulate them from the lessons presented to them by their instructor. It can happen to any one of us.
Look at it this way. The first time we follow a table or a PDC profile, we are trusting it to keep us safe and whole but there is no guarantee itll work. The PGB is somewhere between 0 and 1 but we really cannot be sure where exactly. Its a crap shoot. If we dove the same profile last week or last month and felt fine after it, and today start the dive in better shape lets say better rested and better hydrated there are still no sure bets but at least we know the odds are in our favor and the good money is on the PGB being close enough to 0 for the dive to be doable.
If you still can't see why we should teach dive tables, then please think about why dive tables were invented in the first place and how.
Not teaching OW students dive tables is the same as not explaning the Crash of 29 or Bretton Woods to freshman Economics students to help them understand the current economic situation. You are leaving out the information of how and why.
You are basically saying that because YOU don't remember how to use dive tables, then why teach them. You also say that you don't use a dive computer. No tables, no PDC... and other divers dive with you?
Smile, breathe and go slowly Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnamese Buddhist Monk, Teacher
Once we accept that getting bent is a real probability albeit with a variable risk we can begin to manage our diving in a realistic way and work at cutting the unpredictability to an acceptable level. None of us wants to take a ride in a recompression chamber, but its not something we can ignore or be frightened by.
Off-gasing from a dive every dive consists of two phases that can be broadly defined as ascent beyond the off-gassing ceiling and surface off-gassing or, less formally, in-water decompression followed by a surface interval. Whether formal or not, we cannot say a dive has been successful until both phases are completed and there are no complaints of joint pain, paralysis, skin rash or any other signs or symptoms caused by decompression stress. Doppler testing has shown bubbles persisting in divers for as long as several days, so the waiting period is probably longer than many of us admit to.
Being successful is a broad combination of several factors including education, scepticism, conservatism, adequate health and fitness, adopting and following diving practices that conform to an accepted norm, and, maybe, some luck.
Luck will always be an influence in the outcome of your diving. By concentrating some considerable effort on the other factors, the percentage of luck in your personal equations can be kept to an absolute minimum.
Instructors will suggest various strategies to draw up ascent schedules that keep everyone safe. These may include wearing a PDC and/or using existing tables such as those from DSAT (PADI), Buhlmann, BSAC, US Navy, etc.
An instructor should employ combination strategies that consist of teaching the tables backed up by a PDC or a PDC backed up by the tables. This way is the student leaves the class with an understanding that there are several workable strategies to manage decompression
Students are guided towards making desicions that conform to an acceptable norm arrived at by their certifying agency, their instructor or an amalgam of both.
An optimal profile is one where every practical opportunity to make the divers probability of getting decompression sickness close to 0 is taken. An aggressive profile ,on the other hand, is one where decompression either in-water or on the surface or both are accelerated. In other words, at least one factor pushing for a conservative approach has been swept aside or ignored.
When a diver graduates a diving course and begins to plan his or her own dives, they will typically follow pretty much the same general format that was presented during their course. By dive eight or nine post class, its normal for some slight changes to have taken place. The Human Factor usually pushes the needle closer to one as time passes. There comes a time when their experience as divers begins to over-rule caution. Complacency causes small leaks to appear in the dyke. Water starts to trickle in. The hope is that they notice something is going on and smarten up before a full-on breach washes them away. Over time, some level of complacency almost always sets in. If we could see probability of getting bent (PGB) as a straight line with 0 (no chance) at one end and 1 (100 percent certain) at the other, we might see what happens a little clearer.
Zero probability of getting bent means not diving. For the sake of illustration, lets say that for every 100 times that profile is dove, between three and four people get bent. Thats a 0.035 PGB, and thats high but no higher than for many tables accepted in the diving community.
It means their probability pointer is shifted closer to 1. But they get away with it for a while and this begins to insulate them from the lessons presented to them by their instructor. It can happen to any one of us.
Look at it this way. The first time we follow a table or a PDC profile, we are trusting it to keep us safe and whole but there is no guarantee itll work. The PGB is somewhere between 0 and 1 but we really cannot be sure where exactly. Its a crap shoot. If we dove the same profile last week or last month and felt fine after it, and today start the dive in better shape lets say better rested and better hydrated there are still no sure bets but at least we know the odds are in our favor and the good money is on the PGB being close enough to 0 for the dive to be doable.
If you still can't see why we should teach dive tables, then please think about why dive tables were invented in the first place and how.
Not teaching OW students dive tables is the same as not explaning the Crash of 29 or Bretton Woods to freshman Economics students to help them understand the current economic situation. You are leaving out the information of how and why.
You are basically saying that because YOU don't remember how to use dive tables, then why teach them. You also say that you don't use a dive computer. No tables, no PDC... and other divers dive with you?
Smile, breathe and go slowly Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnamese Buddhist Monk, Teacher
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