PADI OW and BPW

[wetb4igetinthewater]

To bring the conversation back a bit, it is still ingrained in a number of instructors that BP/W or even just back inflate is going to kill you. I am a new assistant instructor, just helped with my first class. This particular instructor told me that a back inflate BCD would never work for teaching because it pushes you forward in the water.

The low standards in which new instructors have to pass is really a different discussion

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

To bring the conversation back a bit, it is still ingrained in a number of instructors that BP/W or even just back inflate is going to kill you. I am a new assistant instructor, just helped with my first class. This particular instructor told me that a back inflate BCD would never work for teaching because it pushes you forward in the water. Mind you, he said this while I was reclining comfortably in the water with my back inflate... But nothing in standards says I couldn't teach in a BP/W for SSI, as established earlier in this thread

For my personal diving, I actually use a freedom plate (thanks @Eric Sedletzky ), but got a BCD to teach in, since the shop doesn't sell that particular plate. We don't have any plates in the store, but the owners have no problem with me talking about them or ordering them for anyone (another AI uses a BP/W). For them it is more an issue of storage, and yes the contracts they have with some vendors. One of the owners primarily dives a back inflate and I am going to get him in a BP/W at some point!

Say no more, I know which shop as soon as you said SSI.
I gave up on them 15 years ago, but that’s when Tom owned it.
Let the new owner try your FP rig and if he likes it and is interested in one have him call me. I’d be glad to set him up.
I don’t ever expect them to carry them in the store though.

 

[scubaozy]

To bring the conversation back a bit, it is still ingrained in a number of instructors that BP/W or even just back inflate is going to kill you.

If you ascend unconscious from an EA, most likely an ABLJ least likely a back inflate or BP/W will support your head out of the water, thus, keeping you from drowning.
I would like to distance my self from equipment fundamentalism. Best to teach in the equipment the student is using. Best buoyancy equipment depends on the needs of the student or individual diver. Needs will change over time as well. I have a critical view on professionals advocating certain type of equipment as ultimate/best.

 

[birdman27]

Say no more, I know which shop as soon as you said SSI.
I gave up on them 15 years ago, but that’s when Tom owned it.
Let the new owner try your FP rig and if he likes it and is interested in one have him call me. I’d be glad to set him up.
I don’t ever expect them to carry them in the store though.

I figured you would know the shop. I'll see what I can do!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If you ascend unconscious from an EA

you are probably dead anyway.

I never understood this argument as this scenario is so extremely unlikely. If I'm diving solo, I'm diving sidemount or a twinset, not a single tank and a pony for redundancy. So if I'm unconscious, diving solo, and not dead by the time I make it to the surface, I'm going to drown anyway with the configurations I use for solo diving.

 

[Joris Vd]

you are probably dead anyway.

I never understood this argument as this scenario is so extremely unlikely. If I'm diving solo, I'm diving sidemount or a twinset, not a single tank and a pony for redundancy. So if I'm unconscious, diving solo, and not dead by the time I make it to the surface, I'm going to drown anyway with the configurations I use for solo diving.

I mean in EA accidents it's actually a real possibility. Not all victims go unconscious in EA ascents, but quite often, especially when panic is involved people do go unconscious.
In that case it's always better to be face up than face down.

in the case of diving solo ofcourse you are dead, but that's the risk you accept when diving solo.

In general alot of severe accidents can be survived in the case where water does not enter the lungs.
There's a reason each organisation has a plethora of open circuit incidents where victims survive. Because unless if you dive solo, the chance of you surviving is actually quite high.

Depending on the stats 70-80% of all scuba deaths are considered 'drowning' even when it's not specifically the reason for the death, but that means in any case, getting the victim in a situation where no water can enter the lungs is atleast a good premise to follow.

I don't remember exactly and numbers will fluctuate depending on the study, but people who have AGE due to the emergency ascent will die from drowning in over 75% of the cases as well if not brought to shore.

If you take up the old 2001 DAN report for example you will see 85% of all divers who were diagnosed with Arterial gas embolism actually recovered completely from it. So to put it simply 'you're definitely NOT dead anyway'.


I know an arguement could be made, a higher percentage of divers would have died from arterial Embolisms if they had not drowned after surfacing, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying to look for a way to keep water out of the divers lungs.

As our main cause of death, anywhere in the world seems to be us getting water in the lungs, I see only benefits in keeping someone face up on the surface, no matter the situations, what tool you need to use to get there, I don't care, you might be diving with pool noodles, a co2 cartridged mae west, a horse collar, bcd jacket, an oms bondage wing or or a dir conform wing.

If you want the hard numbers, just look up the yearly DAN-reports, the BSAC has done some good reporting on their fatalities as well and Dan did some bigger studies in the early 2000's where they focussed on a couple of hundred accidents at a time per study.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I mean in EA accidents it's actually a real possibility. Not all victims go unconscious in EA ascents, but quite often, especially when panic is involved people do go unconscious.
In that case it's always better to be face up than face down.

in the case of diving solo ofcourse you are dead, but that's the risk you accept when diving solo.

In general alot of severe accidents can be survived in the case where water does not enter the lungs.
There's a reason each organisation has a plethora of open circuit incidents where victims survive. Because unless if you dive solo, the chance of you surviving is actually quite high.

Depending on the stats 70-80% of all scuba deaths are considered 'drowning' even when it's not specifically the reason for the death, but that means in any case, getting the victim in a situation where no water can enter the lungs is atleast a good premise to follow.

I don't remember exactly and numbers will fluctuate depending on the study, but people who have AGE due to the emergency ascent will die from drowning in over 75% of the cases as well if not brought to shore.

If you take up the old 2001 DAN report for example you will see 85% of all divers who were diagnosed with Arterial gas embolism actually recovered completely from it. So to put it simply 'you're definitely NOT dead anyway'.


I know an arguement could be made, a higher percentage of divers would have died from arterial Embolisms if they had not drowned after surfacing, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying to look for a way to keep water out of the divers lungs.

As our main cause of death, anywhere in the world seems to be us getting water in the lungs, I see only benefits in keeping someone face up on the surface, no matter the situations, what tool you need to use to get there, I don't care, you might be diving with pool noodles, a co2 cartridged mae west, a horse collar, bcd jacket, an oms bondage wing or or a dir conform wing.

If you want the hard numbers, just look up the yearly DAN-reports, the BSAC has done some good reporting on their fatalities as well and Dan did some bigger studies in the early 2000's where they focussed on a couple of hundred accidents at a time per study.

So we are agreed in this unlikely scenario, solo --> dead.

Onto the buddy diving scenario. Wouldn't the buddy just flip their unconscious buddy onto their backs/keep their heads above water? This is common sense, is it not? Not even rescue is required.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

If somebody is solo diving and prone to needing to do EA’s from depth and worried about ending up unconscious on the surface face down and drowning they probably shouldn’t be solo diving in the first place. Solo diving is one of those “know your limits and your vulnerabilities” type of activities.

 

[Joris Vd]

So we are agreed in this unlikely scenario, solo --> dead.

Onto the buddy diving scenario. Wouldn't the buddy just flip their unconscious buddy onto their backs/keep their heads above water? This is common sense, is it not? Not even rescue is required.

Yeah I agree on the solo thing, but the post Ucarkus didn't mention solo diving.

But indeed, let's hope your buddy would have the courtesy to flip you over and not let you drown, that is ofcourse assuming the buddy had no long deco obligations he could just ignore. Then again that increases the chance of you dying since he is decochilling at 6 and 3, yada yada yada, and we're full circle again.

I might have made a wrong point in my previous post.

Only thing I said is, that forcing a face up position automatically with a buoyancy device on the surface is inherently a good thing for safety, if ofcourse it is possible.

if I could get my xdeep stealth diaper wing to push me flat on my back and heads up on the surface if I ever went unconscious, it would be safer. Ofcourse there's a ridiculous amount of downsides you have to pay to be face up in an unconscious situation at the moment. But if you could make a wing in such a manner that it gives you perfect streamlined trim, but automatically forced a face up position on the surface, it would be a safer wing.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yeah I agree on the solo thing, but the post Ucarkus didn't mention solo diving.

But indeed, let's hope your buddy would have the courtesy to flip you over and not let you drown, that is ofcourse assuming the buddy had no long deco obligations he could just ignore. Then again that increases the chance of you dying since he is decochilling at 6 and 3, yada yada yada, and we're full circle again.

I might have made a wrong point in my previous post.

Only thing I said is, that forcing a face up position automatically with a buoyancy device on the surface is inherently a good thing for safety, if ofcourse it is possible.

if I could get my xdeep stealth diaper wing to push me flat on my back and heads up on the surface if I ever went unconscious, it would be safer. Ofcourse there's a ridiculous amount of downsides you have to pay to be face up in an unconscious situation at the moment. But if you could make a wing in such a manner that it gives you perfect streamlined trim, but automatically forced a face up position on the surface, it would be a safer wing.

Bring deco requirements into the mix and we are definitely not talking about jacket style BCDs anymore.