Padi Fees

[boulderjohn]

Nobody said PADI pros are greedy money grubbers, the PADI cooperation is, not the guys who are paying the fees.

In the last few weeks I have certified a diver for a specialty class and I have certified two dives as trimix divers. PADI charged me a processing fee for the three certification cards. I had to pay PADI for the two trimix books for the students, but there was no other PADI cost for the specialty. Is that what you mean by money grubbing?

 

[Bennno]

Is that what you mean by money grubbing?

No, of course not. Charging 50 bucks for an eCard or an replacement card, I call money grubbing.

Don't twist my words.

 

[Storker]

As I want to muck in with this sort of thing, I needed the DL ticket. Having CCR and mixed gas means nothing when crossing over though; I am only considered a PADI Rescue Diver / Sports Diver equivalent, as far as diver grade goes.

I don't know what went into your CCR and mixed gas training, but this doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Being a dive leader requires quite different skills than diving a CCR or using He in your breathing gas.

Would your tech background have counted for extra credits over RD if you were to go the PADI route and start DM training?

 

[tursiops]

Would your tech background have counted for extra credits over RD if you were to go the PADI route and start DM training?

Speaking as someone who has trained a lot of DMs; No, not really. The tech training might help a DM actually BE a DM (experience, answering questions, comfort in difficult situations), but it would not help to BECOME a DM, unless it is only through the tech training that one has become experienced at deep, night, and nav.

 

[boulderjohn]

No, of course not. Charging 50 bucks for an eCard or an replacement card, I call money grubbing.

Don't twist my words.

I didn't twist any words. I just asked a question.

Let me ask another question from a different context. I recently had to have some electrical work done, and I had to hire an electrician. His work had set prices for the work, regardless of the time it took, and I had 2-3 things that needed to be done. They took him a total of about 10-15 minutes, for which I was charged a little under $600. What words would you use to describe that?

 

[Bennno]

What words would you use to describe that?

I obviously can't judge that since I don't know how far long he had to drive to get your house, what kind of work he did, what kind of tools, what tax code, what would other contractors have charged you for the same job etc.

I can't believe you're honestly defending PADI charging 50 buck or an eCard. That was the OT about. Nobody accused PADI pros of being money grubbers.

 

[Mustard Dave]

I don't know what went into your CCR and mixed gas training, but this doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Being a dive leader requires quite different skills than diving a CCR or using He in your breathing gas.

Would your tech background have counted for extra credits over RD if you were to go the PADI route and start DM training?

You are correct, but I think you misunderstand the point. The skills taught are different, and I don't expect to just be handed the cert. The point I am trying to make is most technical divers will already have the fundamental skills. It would be insulting to make a technical diver take a lesson on DSMB deployment; if you cannot launch a blob from midwater on the Mod 1 CCR, you do not get the qualification. What my DL instructor did was to assess my existing skills by speaking to me (and from what he has seen of me on club dives) and ask me to demonstrate them in the water.

 

[Mustard Dave]

I didn't twist any words. I just asked a question.

Let me ask another question from a different context. I recently had to have some electrical work done, and I had to hire an electrician. His work had set prices for the work, regardless of the time it took, and I had 2-3 things that needed to be done. They took him a total of about 10-15 minutes, for which I was charged a little under $600. What words would you use to describe that?

I used to be an electrician, and many customers wanted fixed fees, as it makes it means no surprises. For the contractor, they either make money or break even, or lose if the job runs over. If he completes the job quickly and gives a discount he may still lose out if he has allocated time in his diary and cannot fill the remainder of the slot. If you don't want to lose money in these cases, ask him to charge time and materials before he starts.

 

[boulderjohn]

I used to be an electrician, and many customers wanted fixed fees, as it makes it means no surprises. For the contractor, they either make money or break even, or lose if the job runs over. If he completes the job quickly and gives a discount he may still lose out if he has allocated time in his diary and cannot fill the remainder of the slot. If you don't want to lose money in these cases, ask him to charge time and materials before he starts.

I do not question the right of the electrician to charge those prices. I assume that in a free market system, the charges must be in line with what people are willing to pay. And yes, there is the down time when he is not working to consider--you have to get paid when not working, of course.

What I wonder about is why people who would pay those prices think scuba agencies and instructors are greedy money grubbers when they ask to be paid for their services.

I sometimes do specialty classes for individuals. I drive just about an hour each way to get to the local lake, covering about 100 miles total, where I pay an $8 entrance fee, not to mention the annual fee for instructing there. A typical two dive specialty class will take about 4 hours, counting instructional time and diving time. I get a good deal on fills, so the 4 tanks will only cost me $20. My gasoline costs for the trip would be nearly $20. I am not counting wear and tear on equipment, including my van, or what it cost for me to get all that equipment. My specific overhead for that one day will be over $50. If I charged minimum wage, The class would come to about $100.

I have to charge minimum wage to compete with local shops, one of whom I used to work for doing exactly the same classes. In those cases, the shop would pay for the gas and other overhead fees out of their portion of the class fee, and they would pay me a flat fee for that 6 hour day. It would be $15-$20, depending upon the class. Of course, that was per pupil, so I could make more, but specialty classes usually only have 1-2 students. Additionally, the visibility is bad, so I won't take more than 2 students.

 

[Edward3c]

To me, that seems silly. You can easily incorporate multiple skills into a single dive. The other issue is I have joined BSAC as an experienced diver. I did PADI OW, AOW, RD, and the Nitrox and Deep Diver specialities. I did not do DM because I do not want to be a 'PADI Pro'. Instead, I chose to further my training by going down the techie route.

When a diver from another agency joins BSAC, they can continue to dive within the limits of their existing qualification, as you know. However, to organise activities, you need to be a Dive Leader. As I want to muck in with this sort of thing, I needed the DL ticket. Having CCR and mixed gas means nothing when crossing over though; I am only considered a PADI Rescue Diver / Sports Diver equivalent, as far as diver grade goes.

Our TO is a very experienced instructor, and is highly involved at national level; I'm sure he has the requisite expertise to deviate from the syllabus to accommodate an individual and still achieve the same result. He will know that there should be no technical diver that cannot handle a mid-water DSMB deployment, so I fail to see what he is going to teach me. All he needs (in my opinion) is to be satisfied that I meet the requirements of the course.

I have been trying to bring a few of my mates into our club; one of them I spoke to is a PADI trained mixed gas diver. His concern was that he would be made to jump through hoops to cross over. As well as being a competent diver, he is a GP, so he would be an asset to our club. I would like him to get the DL ticket too, but he would tell us to piss off if we made him do all that and over seven separate dives.

Yes I know divers trained by other agencies can continue to do their courses, I have members doing both PADI DM and Dive Leader. They say they complement each other,

Owing to the nature of the skills required at DL it is difficult to combine them into one dive.

DO1 – Mid-water DSMB with no vertical reference and holding station +/- 0.5m. Easy to do on a dive trip.

DO2 – Demonstration of how to lead an Ocean Diver on a dive. The demonstration covers the before water, in-water and post water aspects of dive leading. Can’t be combined with DO1 as an Ocean Diver wouldn’t do a mid-water DSMB deployment.

DO3 – Confirming competence of leading an Ocean Diver on a dive, before water, in-water and post water aspects. If other activities are included in this lesson the student wouldn’t be fairly assessed on leading a newly qualified Ocean Diver.

DO4 – This lesson simulates repositioning a shot that’s landed in the wrong place, then sending it up at the end of the dive. Easy to do on a dive trip, but can’t be combined with DO1 as DO4 also has its own DSMB deployment.

DO5 – Really a dry lesson. The student takes part in a number of rescue scenarios and acts as manager for at least one. I don’t know if PADI RD covers this or not?

DO6 – An assisted ascent both as donor and receiver from 15m, with mask clearing at 15m. Not possible to combine because of multiple faster then normal assents and the weight check is to be done with 50bar.

DO7 – a CBL from 15m, followed by a tow. Once out of the water ‘single rescue’ BLS, ‘two rescuer’ BLS, both without and with O2. Not possible to combine because of multiple faster then normal assents.

Deviation from the Diver Training Programme is not permitted, either to add or subtract items from the sylibus. Instructors are legally accountable for the lessons they sign-off not the Lead Instructor or the Branch.

I’m a little confused. First you criticise PADI for cutting corners and charging extra for none core skills, then you want BSAC to miss out half of a course. Just because we don’t charge for the training doesn’t make it any less professional; it just isn’t commercially driven.