Padi Fees

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I don't give a flying fig if they get their knickers in a twist. There are reasons I went with SDI.

It is clearly supposed to be "knickers in a knot" or "panties in a twist". You cannot say "knickers in a twist".... it simply removes all credibility from the statement. :) LOL .

Ignoring the discussion about cards (which as far as I am concerned is a business choice by PADI and perfectly valid if you choose to dive with their system), Marie13 is quite right about "knickers in a twist" (link)- I have been known to use it quite often. It might not be a well known saying where you are Kris but it is here
 
@devon diver, I do not dispute a lot of that, but I'll quote the last two paragraphs:

If people are cynical of PADI training . . . quoting the old 'Put Another Dollar In' line, then perhaps they shouldn't have searched for the cheapest, crappiest training provider to "get a card". . . and should have searched for quality tuition that would have reflected a REAL value on investment . . . . Maybe. . .

PADI isn't a charity. It's a profit making business. It succeeded in making diving tuition cheap, convenient and affordable for a vast number of people (28 million certs issued).. and empowered people to develop dive centers in every desirable scuba location in the world .

I agree that many people do look for cheapo training. A PADI instructor friend of mine went to work in Thailand over the winter. He told me he was frustrated with the way the dive centres pushed instructors into delivering conveyor belt training, in order to cater to the gap-year types with limited funds. As I said in my post, the BSAC club model works very well, as our instructors are under no commercial pressure.

I do agree PADI has made diving cheap and affordable, but at whose expense? They have flooded the market with instructors, and this oversupply forces down wages. The average resort instructor earns a pittance.

My local dive school charges £395 for the open water course; this is about normal here. Typically there will be three students per course. The theory and pool is done over two days, each comprising 4 hours theory in the morning and 4 hours in the pool in the afternoon, therefore we need to allow 16 hours instructor pay and 8 hours DM pay.

For the open water sessions, again these are run over a weekend. Because of the Diving at Work Regulations, there must be a minimum of three staff to a group. This includes an instructor, a safety diver, and shore cover. I've just run a quick tally in Excel, and by the time they have deducted wages, entry fees, and air fills, they are left with the princely sum of £377.40. I have calculated this by only including the known costs; I have not attempted to estimate overheads, so from that £377.40, we have to deduct pool hire, building costs, equipment costs, insurance, course materials etc. If there is anything of that money left after paying for that lot, I'll swim naked across the training quarry.

On second thoughts, I'll retract that; there must be money left or they would be bankrupt. The reason there is money left is because the instructors are 'self-employed', which means they charge a fixed fee for each course. This means the owner does not have to pay (or more accurately, 'avoids paying') minimum wage. The safety diver and shore cover are unpaid volunteers from the loyal band of DMs and DM candidates, a saving of £417.60.

This is why I will reiterate my point that the Professional Association of Diving Instructors is nothing of the sort; it is nothing more than a business vehicle to skim money off the hard graft of its members. With regards to the people empowered to open dive centres, how is that the case? Before PADI, there were other agencies, operating as not-for-profit organisations to set training standards; all a dive centre owner should need then is the bricks and mortar and a business plan. I'll finish there, before people begin to think I am a bloody socialist.
 
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There are seven open water lessons as you say, but they don't have to be done in seven separate dives. I did DO 5,6&7 in one dive (also note much of this is surface skills), followed by DO 1,2&3 (DSMB use, and dive leading). I did DO 4 (shot recovery) on a club trip.
Each DL open water lesson should be a separate dive:
* DO1 - mid water DSMB deployment.
* DO2 - Dive Leading demonstration.
* DO3 - Dive Leading assessment.
* DO4 - Shot recovery & simple lift.
* DO5 - Rescue Management scenarios (at least 1/2 day).
* DO6 - Alternate Source rescue (15m).
* DO7 - CBL (15m), tow, landing, administer O2.

The skills in these lessons cannot be adequately assessed if combined with other activities. An instructor whom signes them off in bulk has not provided you the course you signed up for. For example, you can not be shown how to lead on OD and demonstrate your competence in leading an OD on the same dive.
 
Naive talk about PADI. They're currently owned by Providence Equity who recently put them on the block for about $1B. They were previously owned by Lincolnshire Management. This is a giant profit making entity - not some kind of benevolent diver loving organization giving away free certs. Get over it.

There's nothing naïve at all. We're all well aware they are a profit making entity. I'm merely stating the point we do not need such an entity. There are alternatives to PADI, which I have taken advantage of. If 'PADI Pros' are happy to continue working for slave wages, and people are daft enough to pay £24.50 for a card with a different picture on it, or buy a scrap of plastic that says they are an MSD, it's no skin off my nose, as I'll never give PADI a penny again.
 
Ignoring the discussion about cards (which as far as I am concerned is a business choice by PADI and perfectly valid if you choose to dive with their system), Marie13 is quite right about "knickers in a twist" (link)- I have been known to use it quite often. It might not be a well known saying where you are Kris but it is here

LOL. Neil....FINALLY... i put it out a couple times in the post, and no bites. I am glad someone finally picked up on the importance of this background conversation. :)

For the record though, I am devoutly opposed to your position on knickers in a twist..... although, as seen in this video - Ross Marquand as Jason Statham clearly agrees with you. :)
 
LOL. Neil....FINALLY... i put it out a couple times in the post, and no bites. I am glad someone finally picked up on the importance of this background conversation. :)

For the record though, I am devoutly opposed to your position on knickers in a twist..... although, as seen in this video - Ross Marquand as Jason Statham clearly agrees with you. :)
I am glad we are having a conversation about what is truly important here - not getting our knickers in a twist or panties in a bunch about it



:rofl3:
 
I'm merely stating the point we do not need such an entity. There are alternatives to PADI,...

Easy to say when you live in the UK . .

Does BSAC publish manuals in Tagalog?

Is there eLearning in Cantonese?

Are there Regional managers, QA and training consultants covering virtually every country of the globe ?

YOU might not been PADI in Manchester, UK... but it's a big wide world out there .

Agencies like BSAC and CMAS bickered about 'authority' for decades. . . They've got virtually no coverage globally. Koh Tao in Thailand does more PADI certs in a month than both agencies combined do in a year. . . (for the better or worse of it).

Yes, BSAC can offer good training, but that's mostly because clubs can't so much diving over winter.. So there's ample scope to practice in a pool. I've seen BSAC and CMAS divers / instructors every bit as bad as the shoddiest PADI instructors. There's good, bad, average and exceptional in all agencies.
 
Naive talk about PADI. They're currently owned by Providence Equity who recently put them on the block for about $1B. They were previously owned by Lincolnshire Management. This is a giant profit making entity - not some kind of benevolent diver loving organization giving away free certs. Get over it.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to list the benevolent, diver-loving organizations that give away free certs. If you don't know which ones those are, here is a process you can use to find them:

1. Look for a dive shop that advertises that it does not intend to make a profit. Its employees work without pay. The ownership is happy to run a money-losing business just to keep people happy.
2. Look for independent instructors who love to teach so much that they don't charge for their services. They will spend hours working with you with no thought of being compensated for their expertise. I am sure you have found plumbers and other service technicians who don't feel the need to be paid, so juse the same same search process you used to find them.
3. Look also for the dive gear manufacturers who give their gear away for free or below their costs. They will usually be associated with those benevolent agencies.

BTW, I was once the executive director of a non-profit organization. Most of my time was spent trying to find ways to generate a profit. A non-profit organization that does not make money goes out of existence pretty quickly.
 
Why does a diver training agency need to make money, other than to cover its costs? Let's remind ourselves what PADI stands for - the Professional Association of Diving Instructors. That is a bit of a misnomer; how many professional bodies exist as autocratic money making machines? Most trade associations and professional bodies exist for the purposes of looking after the interests of their members and maintaining standards; generally they are governed by representatives from the industry, who are elected the membership.

You bring up a good point Dave. "A professional association (also called a professional body, professional organization, or professional society) is usually a nonprofit organization seeking to further a particular profession, the interests of individuals engaged in that profession and the public interest." (wiki)

PADI is NOT a professional Association, it is a privately own business.

Additionally, most countries have laws against deceptive business practices which may include a for profit business naming itself a professional association, which implies nonprofit. A complaint might be in order.
 
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