PADI - Concerns about students skills.

[rsingler]

Lots of back and forth here.

But let me get this straight.
You're pretty adamant about your point of view because a 20-something insurance advisor on the phone said you wouldn't be covered past 60 feet. I haven't seen a quote from your policy, but you seem convinced that OW only certifies you to 60 feet unless you pay for more cards.

Right?

 

[Edward3c]

There is no need for that. There is no requirement for that. Divers are told to extend their limits through training and experience. Experience alone can be enough. There does not have to be a specific class to extend those limits.

There is always an exception. BSAC Ocean Diver (OD) and Sports Diver (SD) grades require an instructor to lead them on post qualification dives to 20m OD (if not achieved during the OD course), and 35m SD (in 5m increments past 20m).
However, the essence of what you say is valid.

 

[boulderjohn]

Agencies have teh experience thing in their books and it is simply that you can do a dive with a qualified instructor and then have the instructor sign your book as proof that you did it under the suprevision and did it safely. That is the experience signature that is needed to be covered when you only have a OW and you have an issue at depths past 60 ft. At some time someone actually posted PADI's policy on that.

I have been a PADI professional and a ScubaBoard member for 16 years and have never heard anyone even claim this to be true before.

 

[tursiops]

I have been a PADI professional and a ScubaBoard member for 16 years and have never heard anyone even claim this to be true before.

He is extrapolating and generalizing from refuted nonsense.

 

[yle]

I believe I already answered it in that PADI will cite that the certifying instructor believes that the diver met all performance requirements. They will do nothing. If there is litigation, it is the instructor who will be under the spotlight.

But the OP himself admits that the student met the requirements as stated in the instructor manual.

It seems the OP is a DMT, which is fine but... I'm sure this is how the exchange with PADI might develop:

DMT: I was assisting with an OW class and a student didn't listen to safety things I told her, had trouble entering the water properly, had buoyancy issues and couldn't even put on her fins. But the instructor still certified her!

PADI: okay... did you talk to the instructor about your concerns?

DMT: no, but I posted on Scubaboard and a lot of people said I should tell PADI about it.

PADI: okay... thanks for your concern.

If the OP is a DMT, one thing he will have to learn before dropping the "T" is how to work with the instructor, especially if he has concerns about a student's competence in the water. I'm guessing there's more to the story than what he's provided in the original post.

 

[yle]

He is extrapolating and generalizing from refuted nonsense.

LOL... you should be printing t-shirts. I'm picturing my students (college students, not scuba students) wearing this. I had the same thought about another one of your comments on another thread recently, but I don't remember where. Could be a goldmine.

 

[yle]

you already are,,,,, its called OW ( 18-20m) AOW (30m) and deep (40M) 3 diffrerent courses three times to pay.

No one is requiring anyone to take these courses to dive to these depths. Agencies recommend these depths for the corresponding training levels. And many dive ops require these training levels before they agree to take you to dive sites that have those depths.

But you can go to those depths without the corresponding cards, no one is stopping you. In fact, I've seen plenty of people dive to 100 feet with nothing more than an OW cert (my own 14 yr old niece did it several times a couple years ago on a family trip in the Caribbean.)

 

[yle]

I know that this may not be liked but the instructor has a way out of most anything. his records that WILL say the student demonstrated well.

"a way out of most anything"... this is a weird statement. It seems like you're making the assumption that the instructor has a responsibility for a student's choices after that student leaves the class. The instructor provides training, evaluates the training, and issues a cert card. The choices the student makes with their life after that are completely beyond the instructor's control. The student also signs a document (which the instructor retains) stating that the student promises to dive safely, conservatively and follow all principles they learned in their training. In addition, the student also promises that if they forget any of the training, they will get take the initiative to get a refresher.

I offer any instructor a challenge to examine any average ow DIVE BOOK on a boat dive AND FIND ANY VALID Instructor SIG TO CERTIFY THEM TO exceed the recommended 60 FT.

I am trying really hard to figure out what you're asking for here. You want me (an instructor) to examine an "average" ow dive book... but it has to be on a boat... and then find a "valid" instructor (which I assume would be another instructor, i.e. not me...) to "certify them" to exceed the "recommended 60 ft"?

You will never find anyone willing to do this because no one could figure out what you're asking for. You sound very agitated about this concept of people not being allowed to dive deeper than 60 ft, but it sounds like a complete misunderstanding. Go dive as deep as you like... just don't expect people to help you do it.

Here's the difference:

SItuation #1: OW diver walks into a dive shop on a marina. OW diver says to shop personnel "I am a new diver, just got my OW cert, and I would now like to dive to 200 feet today."

Shop personnel: "We don't think that's a good idea, but you're an adult. You get to make your own decisions. If you're asking our advice, we'll suggest you don't do that until you get the proper experience and training. But your decisions are up to you."

Situation #2: OW diver walks into a dive shop on a marina. OW diver says to shop personnel "I am a new diver, just got my OW cert, and I would now like to dive to 200 feet today. And I would like you to provide to me the gear for my dive and take me out on your boat so I can do my dive."

Shop personnel: "No, we're not going to do that. No, oh goodness no."

Anyone that believes OW divers are not allowed to dive deeper than 60 feet are confusing these two situations. Hope this helps clarify for you.

 

[scubadada]

Some operators require AOW or recent experience for some deeper dives. I have never been asked for my Deep Diver cert for dives below 100 ft, the Spiegel Grove, as a common example. It would seem easiest to have AOW rather than to have to prove recent experience each time, but that should generally work.

 

[yle]

Experience can be enough???? who validates that? and where do you find someone willing to sign their name that they have validated that experience. Where does it exist that if you get the right experience signatures you can trade them in for a n AOW card.

You hit the nail on the head here: "who validates that?" I would bet this is the source of your frustration. You want a boat to take you to a deep site. They say "where's your AOW card?" You say "I don't have one... but I have tons of relevant experience." They say "ummmm...

who validates that?"

And there's the problem. To keep things simple for the boat operators, they use the card system. Someone (i.e. an instructor) took care of the validating and the diver got an AOW card. If you do it on your own, how do you convince the boat operator?

That is between you and the boat op. If you put yourself in their position, you would want some kind of validation, and not just the diver's word, of that experience.

Someone else had exactly the same thought as yours, many decades ago... and they started a scuba cert agency. You can do the same, although it would probably be a lot more work than just taking an AOW class and getting the card.

As for how you can trade your experience for an AOW card? Go to any shop, give them a few hundred bucks, go diving with them five times, and voila! All your experience has just been converted to an AOW card.

(If it helps, we used to tell the same thing to eager dads that would come into the shop to tell us they taught their kid how to scuba dive in their pool, and wanted to know if we could give their kid a cert card. We told them the kid would need to take the OW class. Dad would insist the kid didn't need the class, already knows everything, just needs the card. So our policy changed: we wouldn't tell the dad that the kid needed the class... only that dad would need to give us $400, sign some paperwork, the kid would have to hang out with us in the classroom and pool for a while, showing us his awesome scuba skills, and then the kid would have to do four dives in the ocean with us. Then we could give him a card. Dad would usually give up at that point.)