PADI - Concerns about students skills.

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I see this as an unanswered initial question:
Since the diver in question is already certified, is there anything that PADI might do to rescind the certification?
I don't know the answer, but I'm tempted to call PADI and ask. It's a reasonable question, if the instructor who notices the behavior has serious safety concerns.

I believe I already answered it in that PADI will cite that the certifying instructor believes that the diver met all performance requirements. They will do nothing. If there is litigation, it is the instructor who will be under the spotlight.

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe I already answered it in that PADI will cite that the certifying instructor believes that the diver met all performance requirements. They will do nothing. If there is litigation, it is the instructor who will be under the spotlight.

How else could it be? If the certifying instructor's judgment was that someone met standards and some unknown spectator has a different judgment, how could any agency act on that?

They will, however, act if specific standards are not met as determined by objective evidence, not a disagreement about judgment. For example, let's say you observed the instructor and student go to 80 feet during an OW training dive. They will act on something like that, because it is not judgment. They will, however, investigate the situation first.

Here are two stories from my experience that shows how the process works.

One: When I was still a fairly new diver, I was diving in a south Pacific resort area, and for two days one of the divers on our boat was a young man from the Netherlands. He was a very poor diver, and I felt that the DM should have paid more attention to him. On both dives the first day, he was low on air very quickly, and the DM sent him to the surface alone, which concerned me. On the second day, the same thing happened on the first dive, after which the diver overate during the surface interval and felt too sick to do the second dive. When we got back to the shop, I was shocked to see him greeted by an instructor. It turned out the four dives those two days, only 3 of which he did, were his OW certification dives. He had done no skills on those dives, and his instructor was not present. He was now a certified diver.

As soon as I got home, I sent a letter to PADI. I got a response back quickly, thanking me and telling me they would investigate the matter thoroughly. They told me I would not be told the results of the investigation. I later checked the PADI website and saw that the instructor had been expelled. In order to do that, they must have checked the dates I was there, determined who had been certified, contacted that individual, and decided that what I had told them was true. They would not have done it just on my say-so, and I would not expect them to.

Two: In my first two years as a professional, I was at first a DM and then an AI assisting in classes, and I assisted in a lot of OW dives in a local reservoir, usually with one specific instructor. All the classes were done with a PVC platform we installed for each class, with that platform suspended from 4 buoys. The CESAs were done very carefully and by the book. The instructor took the students up one of the lines to the buoy on the surface. After students are certified, most receive surveys from PADI, and one of those students (only one) had indicated that the instructor had not used an ascent line for the CESA, as is required. As a result, PADI had opened an investigation of the instructor. They eventually decided that the student was mistaken, probably because everyone else in the class remembered using a line.

 

[TMHeimer]

I see this as an unanswered initial question:
Since the diver in question is already certified, is there anything that PADI might do to rescind the certification?
I don't know the answer, but I'm tempted to call PADI and ask. It's a reasonable question, if the instructor who notices the behavior has serious safety concerns.

I'm not a "Standards" expert, but I'm sure that a diver cert. is exactly like a driver's license in that it is good for life and can't be rescinded. Of course a driver's license can be suspended, and in some places when you reach an age (say 85) you must continually re-test. So in fact the diver cert. is even more "secure" in that it is yours no matter what stupid thing you do.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

How else could it be? If the certifying instructor's judgment was that someone met standards and some unknown spectator has a different judgment, how could any agency act on that?

Maybe I misinterpret your tone, but I don't see why you are getting worked up as that is my point. No agency is going to act on an instructor based upon some rando's comments (no offense to the OP).

 

[Colliam7]

Since the diver in question is already certified, is there anything that PADI might do to rescind the certification? I don't know the answer, but I'm tempted to call PADI and ask.

You should. And, I suspect I know what the answer will be.

It's a reasonable question, if the instructor who notices the behavior has serious safety concerns.

Is the OP an Instructor? I ask not to, in any way, denigrate the OP, or what was said. But, it is not at all clear - at least to me - what the credentials of the OP - with specific regard to OW Diver training, and to THIS PARTICULAR student - might be. The narrative at least implies that the OP was working with the class in some official capacity - otherwise, why would he be pulling the positively buoyant diver down? But, the OP's role has not been clarified as far as I can tell.

PADI, and EVERY other training agency, has to depend upon the judgement of THE credentialed, certifying Instructor responsible for the student. Anything else is essentially heresay. In submitting the paperwork (physical or electronic) for student certification, the Instructor in essence 'pledges' that all requirements for certification have been met. IF specific violations of PADI standards are observed, and documented, by a third party in a communication to PADI, it is possible that some further investigation might be pursued. But, a 'one off' report is unlikely to generate any action. Fortunately. Can you imagine a world in which any individual can 'Report' an otherwise unverified observation to a training agency, and solely on the basis of that 'Report' have a student diver's certification withheld or rescinded?

They will do nothing. If there is litigation, it is the instructor who will be under the spotlight.

Good point. And, that is both true, and exactly as it should be. As an Instructor, I have a specific responsibility, the weight of which I cannot afford to take lightly. In submitting a diver certification to the agency, I - me, myself, and I - am proactively stating that that a diver has met the specified performance requirements for issuance of that certification. The agency may issue the certification card, but that is done so on the basis of MY assertion - as the Instructor of record - that all performance requirements have been met. I am under NO obligation to certify a diver who, in my judgement, has not met all requirements for certification.

 

[boulderjohn]

Maybe I misinterpret your tone, but I don't see why you are getting worked up as that is my point. No agency is going to act on an instructor based upon some rando's comments (no offense to the OP).

I'm not worked up. I just explained to readers why an agency cannot just punish an instructor based on someone's opinion.

 

[NAM001]

I would agree with everyone else here, and believe there is a strong case for saying the student did not meet the criteria for mastery.

Too late in this particular case, but you asked whether there was the facility for placing restrictions on a certification. The answer is yes, PADI Scuba Diver. This restricts a diver to max 12m and only when accompanied by an in status DM or higher.

The larger concern for me is the divers overall attitude in this case. Lack of willingness to learn and an over dependency on others do not bode well.

wow not to be a doWner on this BUT I agree with you on the 12 meters but no one else does. they mostly all believe that you more or less sign off your own experience and 130 is the only real limit. 60 feet is only a recommendation as it is said. I honestly thing max depth should be embossed on every card just like tech 50 for instance. your give an OW REC20 CARD OR A REC 30 OR 40 CARD AS THEY PROGRESS FROM OW TO AOW TO DEEP. The boat dive business will cry a river on that though. The other aspect of not passing because of a minimum profiecency is a real administrative thing and also not seen in the real world. who wants to go to a instructor that may fail you???? I see many new divers that are not even close to being any where close to bouyant. [erhaps the instructor gets them there for the class but never teaches the student how to get there them selves. there are a lot of 80 ft bicycle riders in the water. but they all either passed the tests or understood their mistakes upon review. which is not any kind of real standard at all. The dollar is very powerful in this industry when it comes to pass fail. I dont know why there is not a questino base where if you miss a question you can recover the material and then give an abreviated test with 2-3 questions in each of the prior missed areas to actually validate the student understands their mistakes. water profeciency is seldom achieved in a class depending what is motivating the instructor. I think other than boat operators, an OW is not much more than a learning permit that allows you to get air.

 

[boulderjohn]

I honestly thing max depth should be embossed on every card just like tech 50 for instance. your give an OW REC20 CARD OR A REC 30 OR 40 CARD AS THEY PROGRESS FROM OW TO AOW TO DEEP.

Right now a lot of people are screaming that agencies are just milking certifications for dollars. How do you think people would feel if agencies said you needed to have (and pay for) certifications for 20 feet, then 30 feet, then 40 feet,--all the way to 130 feet?

 

[NAM001]

You should. And, I suspect I know what the answer will be.Is the OP an Instructor? I ask not to, in any way, denigrate the OP, or what was said. But, it is not at all clear - at least to me - what the credentials of the OP - with specific regard to OW Diver training, and to THIS PARTICULAR student - might be. The narrative at least implies that the OP was working with the class in some official capacity - otherwise, why would he be pulling the positively buoyant diver down? But, the OP's role has not been clarified as far as I can tell.

PADI, and EVERY other training agency, has to depend upon the judgement of THE credentialed, certifying Instructor responsible for the student. Anything else is essentially heresay. In submitting the paperwork (physical or electronic) for student certification, the Instructor in essence 'pledges' that all requirements for certification have been met. IF specific violations of PADI standards are observed, and documented, by a third party in a communication to PADI, it is possible that some further investigation might be pursued. But, a 'one off' report is unlikely to generate any action. Fortunately. Can you imagine a world in which any individual can 'Report' an otherwise unverified observation to a training agency, and solely on the basis of that 'Report' have a student diver's certification withheld or rescinded?Good point. And, that is both true, and exactly as it should be. As an Instructor, I have a specific responsibility, the weight of which I cannot afford to take lightly. In submitting a diver certification to the agency, I - me, myself, and I - am proactively stating that that a diver has met the specified performance requirements for issuance of that certification. The agency may issue the certification card, but that is done so on the basis of MY assertion - as the Instructor of record - that all performance requirements have been met. I am under NO obligation to certify a diver who, in my judgement, has not met all requirements for certification.

I know that this may not be liked but the instructor has a way out of most anything. his records that WILL say the student demonstrated well. And that they understand the recommended 60ft limit. something happens at 70 they are off the hook because of the limit and the inability to get a recognizable instructor sig to certify experience to go beyond 60 ft. I offer any instructor a challenge to examine any average ow DIVE BOOK on a boat dive AND FIND ANY VALID Instructor SIG TO CERTIFY THEM TO exceed the recommended 60 FT. Yes there will be some but prerhaps more than 2% may be a real challenge. and on top of that If I am not mistakes the 60ft thing is not the real limit. the cert says certified to safely complete a dive under teh same or better conditions that they had during instruction. NOw how deep is an instructor allowed to take a OW student??? 30-40 ft while in a training status. That makes 60 feet beyond those limits.. trsain in a clear spriong and turbid water is beyond the training environment. I dont see how anything can fall back on an instructor or agency unless something happens while training say from a 20:1 student instructor ratio..

 

[NAM001]

Right now a lot of people are screaming that agencies are just milking certifications for dollars. How do you think people would feel if agencies said you needed to have (and pay for) certifications for 20 feet, then 30 feet, then 40 feet,--all the way to 130 feet?

you already are,,,,, its called OW ( 18-20m) AOW (30m) and deep (40M) 3 diffrerent courses three times to pay. Only it pays more as a class than a dive by dive observance notation. I have no problem with an QW limiting training depth to 30-40 ft. but if you are going to say don't go beyond training experience or 60 ft ,,,, then do an after class dive and write the experience note in the log book for 60 ft that requires at minimum an instructor or perhaps a DM to be the certifiying agent with their inst number. then the 60 ft can not be brought into ability question for new diver. Which BTW there are dive shops (few) that do boat dives that include that as part of the package. you make a 90 ft wreck dive and an instructor or DM that accompanied the group will do the comment in the dive books. How can that be so hard to do. If you want that crew tip on the boat then sign the book.