PADI - Concerns about students skills.

[boulderjohn]

NOw how deep is an instructor allowed to take a OW student??? 30-40 ft while in a training status.

The limit for OW classes is 60 feet.

I offer any instructor a challenge to examine any average ow DIVE BOOK on a boat dive AND FIND ANY VALID Instructor SIG TO CERTIFY THEM TO exceed the recommended 60 FT.

There is no need for that. There is no requirement for that. Divers are told to extend their limits through training and experience. Experience alone can be enough. There does not have to be a specific class to extend those limits.

 

[boulderjohn]

you already are,,,,, its called OW ( 18-20m) AOW (30m) and deep (40M) 3 diffrerent courses three times to pay.

Those classes are recommended. They are not required. Divers can use their experience to extend their limits.

You have been on ScubaBoard for many years. I would guess this has been explained to you at least 20 times. What part of it is giving you trouble? I would like to help.

 

[NAM001]

The limit for OW classes is 60 feet.

There is no need for that. There is no requirement for that. Divers are told to extend their limits through training and experience. Experience alone can be enough. There does not have to be a specific class to extend those limits.

where did that come from. we already have those extended classes ,,,,,,,,,, its aow and DEEP and you have to pay for it. This I admit is a thorn in my side because of the claim that all you need is an OW and you can go to 130 ft. Ow only trains to go to 60 of less. if that is not true then why is there AOW and DEEP to cover how to safely conduct those dives.

Experience can be enough???? who validates that? and where do you find someone willing to sign their name that they have validated that experience. Where does it exist that if you get the right experience signatures you can trade them in for a n AOW card. For the most part all the talk is legal stuff to protect the agency and its agents and insures selling of more courses. If what you say is really valid. then anyone should be able to have a log book never take a course and be allowed to be able to do a dive based on past experience and no formal training.

 

[NAM001]

Those classes are recommended. They are not required. Divers can use their experience to extend their limits.

You have been on ScubaBoard for many years. I would guess this has been explained to you at least 20 times. What part of it is giving you trouble? I would like to help.

your position is that you can not get formal experience signatures with out paying for a class. I am asking how you do that. because no life insurance company buys that position. OW means 60 ft and no further. If you are not carded you are not trained to do that dive. If you die you did so because you exceeded your training limits. It is not an accidental death. It could be called a suicide and result in no payment to the beneficiary depending on conditions. The documented training makes a difference. unfortunately it is not in the interest of dive operators.

 

[tursiops]

where did that come from. we already have those extended classes ,,,,,,,,,, its aow and DEEP and you have to pay for it. This I admit is a thorn in my side because of the claim that all you need is an OW and you can go to 130 ft. Ow only trains to go to 60 of less. if that is not true then why is there AOW and DEEP to cover how to safely conduct those dives.

Experience can be enough???? who validates that? and where do you find someone willing to sign their name that they have validated that experience. Where does it exist that if you get the right experience signatures you can trade them in for a n AOW card. For the most part all the talk is legal stuff to protect the agency and its agents and insures selling of more courses. If what you say is really valid. then anyone should be able to have a log book never take a course and be allowed to be able to do a dive based on past experience and no formal training.

KWS, what certifies you to drive at the speed limit on the Interstate while listening to the radio and talking to a passenger? Certainly not training. Experience? probably. Who certified that experience?

 

[Colliam7]

I am not sure how issues of depth crept into the discussion, other than, perhaps, as examples of Instructor documentation.

It is worth keeping in mind - we are discussing a situation where we have only one perspective. And - again, this is not in any way a criticism of the OP - we don't really yet know what the role of the OP was in this situation, nor do we have full details of what exactly transpired. So, rather than leaving the main track to discuss fees and depths and . . . ., whatever, it might be better to deal with what we have been told, and wait for further clarification.

Yes, an Instructor has an 'out' in the sense that s/he can put whatever they choose in a students record, related to what took place during a dive. But, an Instructor also has an 'out', in that they do not HAVE to certify a diver. If I assume that the OP's description is accurate, I would like to know if the OP discussed this student with the Instructor.. Of, course, that discussion would be informed by better understanding what the OP's specific role in this class might have been.

I am not yet comfortable that I am in a position, based on what has been presented here, to know what should or should not have happened with regard to certification.

 

[boulderjohn]

where did that come from. we already have those extended classes ,,,,,,,,,, its aow and DEEP and you have to pay for it.

You have to pay for the classes if you choose to take them. You don't have to pay for them if you don't.

if that is not true then why is there AOW and DEEP to cover how to safely conduct those dives.

• Some people want to take classes to learn these things; some people don't.
• Some dive operators require AOW for deeper dives. That is the decision of the dive operator. It is not the decision of the dive agency.

Experience can be enough???? who validates that?

Nobody. Why does it need to be validated?

Where does it exist that if you get the right experience signatures you can trade them in for a n AOW card

What are experience signatures? What are they used for? If you want an AOW certification, you take an AOW class. If you just want the experience, you just get the experience.

Then anyone should be able to have a log book never take a course and be allowed to be able to do a dive based on past experience and no formal training.

Yes, that would be possible. It would be up to the dive operator. Some require AOW for deeper dives, but many don't. They leave it up to the diver to determine if his or her experience and training is sufficient for the dive.

your position is that you can not get formal experience signatures with out paying for a class.

I have no idea what a "formal experience signature" is or what it is used for.

OW means 60 ft and no further.

That's what it means in terms of your training level immediately upon certification. After that, your depth limit grows with experience and training. There is no rule whatsoever limiting OW certified divers to 60 feet, unless an individual dive operator makes such a rule for their customers. The dive agencies have no such rule, and they have no power to make such a rule if they wished to.

If you are not carded you are not trained to do that dive. If you die you did so because you exceeded your training limits. It is not an accidental death. It could be called a suicide and result in no payment to the beneficiary depending on conditions. The documented training makes a difference. unfortunately it is not in the interest of dive operators.

That is complete and utter hogwash. Please cite a case where that has happened.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

your position is that you can not get formal experience signatures with out paying for a class. .

Well, someone figured out how to create those first classes, so no one can argue that skills cannot be acquired through experience and a whole 'lotta trial and error.

I mean, nobody certified JYC, right?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I see many new divers that are not even close to being any where close to bouyant.

That's the norm for the mainstream agency. No mainstream agency wants to reduce their cash flow from easy money where certification are not even participation trophies (due to not all skills being performed, sometimes OW dives have been skipped all together - yes the IT owning the dive shop has been reported - no, nothing has been done so far) and provide objective standards. Mastery is often interpreted as the lowest common demoninator in that "student didn't drown. Next!".

While it does chap my hide, that's a portion of the industry. How large? No idea. My empirical observations are statistically insignificant.

 

[NAM001]

That's the norm for the mainstream agency. No mainstream agency wants to reduce their cash flow from easy money where certification are not even participation trophies (due to not all skills being performed, sometimes OW dives have been skipped all together - yes the IT owning the dive shop has been reported - no, nothing has been done so far) and provide objective standards. Mastery is often interpreted as the lowest common demoninator in that "student didn't drown. Next!".

While it does chap my hide, that's a portion of the industry. How large? No idea. My empirical observations are statistically insignificant.

your comments though disturbing are commonplace. this topic has come up over and over again. and it always ends with company men supporting the lack of training and then pass the buck to all others but them selves. It takes something really bad to have the reprocussion fall back on an instructor or agency. All points made have been limited to with in the industry. It is a fox guarding the hen house. Outside agencies do not recognize what the agencies are putting out. for life insurance diving below 60 feet is considered high risk. that is where the 60 ft came from for their RECOMMENDED DEPTH LIMIT. you are almost uninsurable if you are a cave diver or a sky diver. You can get around it if you sign that you all not do it again. I applied for insurance and only had an OW card. Got told that no card means no training and I was diving outside of my training. that would result in no pay off and return of premiums if I died. diving below 60 feet is high risk premiums. You can get around that so long as you dont die in the next 12 months. It makes no sense to take a course of use ta year that was teh equivilant to a Master diver adn break it up in to several courses and then say take part one and it is equal. Agencies have teh experience thing in their books and it is simply that you can do a dive with a qualified instructor and then have the instructor sign your book as proof that you did it under the suprevision and did it safely. That is the experience signature that is needed to be covered when you only have a OW and you have an issue at depths past 60 ft. At some time someone actually posted PADI's policy on that. I believe that agencies like SSI allows you do to your dives with others ans will accept those dives privided the dives were witnesses by another certified insturctor. That is the root of the so called recommendation of 60 ft with out further training or experience. The problem is that the market is cornered because instructors will not do the observe and sign the log book. They make more $ forcing you to take a course. Just like every company man should do. It bothers me that to get an OW you have to retrieve a reg remove and replace a mask do a CESA pass a test and for the most part that is the min requirements. they leave you with WHEN YOU ARE READY,,,,, COME BACK TO LEARN THE SKILLS TO GO TO DEPTHS OF 100 FT. That in it self is an admission that deep water skills are not taught in OW as a mandate. Most of them whether they know it or not are dangerous. they have never experienced increased air usage at depth negative buoyancy from squeezed set suits, narcosis. all the stuff covered in a AOW course. YET your simple OW should be universally acceoted and unchallenged to go to 130 ft. the agencies cant have it both ways. They put out recommended depth limitations for a reason (they know the short comings of the course they created to be part of a series of training segments). but say they have no meaning. they have an experience documentation program but both ignore or admit its existance. you can see that in some of the responces here. I would like to see a thread where we could all tell stories of how we had to save some newby's but from OOA and what ever. The sad side is that if it were not for those really qualified to do those dives the fatalities would be much higher. because they are not . a problem is not recognized. Others are correct you should be able to dive based on solely an experience book with out any formal training. That would fall in line with the position of all leanring past OW,,,, but outside agencies again do not agree with that concept. If that were the case we would never have to show a nitrox card to get it, we would only say we have experience using it. we would never have to show a cert card to go on a commercial dive trip,, we would just say we have experienced for years. It it were true operators would not have to make you sign a waiver to dive. I would make the argument that if the training was good and screening of that training was done by operators to insure training matched the dive we would not have much reason for a waiver if any as it relates to the dive portion. Of course the boat insurer would not go for that. (high risk) the boat would not go for that ( loss of revenues) and everyone needs everything to pass the buck to the diver. The saddest part is that the diver probably does not even know how the system has stacked the deck against the diver by putting the risk he is taking and diving beyond his provable documented certified training. they are being told after class there is no limits to their OW card. aT THE POINT OF THE CARD ISSUING THE STUDENT STILL CANT PUT A TANK ON WITH OUT IT FALLING OUT.