PADI - Concerns about students skills.

[yle]

your comments though disturbing are commonplace. this topic has come up over and over again. and it always ends with company men supporting the lack of training and then pass the buck to all others but them selves. It takes something really bad to have the reprocussion fall back on an instructor or agency. All points made have been limited to with in the industry. It is a fox guarding the hen house. Outside agencies do not recognize what the agencies are putting out. for life insurance diving below 60 feet is considered high risk. that is where the 60 ft came from for their RECOMMENDED DEPTH LIMIT. you are almost uninsurable if you are a cave diver or a sky diver. You can get around it if you sign that you all not do it again. I applied for insurance and only had an OW card. Got told that no card means no training and I was diving outside of my training. that would result in no pay off and return of premiums if I died. diving below 60 feet is high risk premiums. You can get around that so long as you dont die in the next 12 months. It makes no sense to take a course of use ta year that was teh equivilant to a Master diver adn break it up in to several courses and then say take part one and it is equal. Agencies have teh experience thing in their books and it is simply that you can do a dive with a qualified instructor and then have the instructor sign your book as proof that you did it under the suprevision and did it safely. That is the experience signature that is needed to be covered when you only have a OW and you have an issue at depths past 60 ft. At some time someone actually posted PADI's policy on that. I believe that agencies like SSI allows you do to your dives with others ans will accept those dives privided the dives were witnesses by another certified insturctor. That is the root of the so called recommendation of 60 ft with out further training or experience. The problem is that the market is cornered because instructors will not do the observe and sign the log book. They make more $ forcing you to take a course. Just like every company man should do. It bothers me that to get an OW you have to retrieve a reg remove and replace a mask do a CESA pass a test and for the most part that is the min requirements. they leave you with WHEN YOU ARE READY,,,,, COME BACK TO LEARN THE SKILLS TO GO TO DEPTHS OF 100 FT. That in it self is an admission that deep water skills are not taught in OW as a mandate. Most of them whether they know it or not are dangerous. they have never experienced increased air usage at depth negative buoyancy from squeezed set suits, narcosis. all the stuff covered in a AOW course. YET your simple OW should be universally acceoted and unchallenged to go to 130 ft. the agencies cant have it both ways. They put out recommended depth limitations for a reason (they know the short comings of the course they created to be part of a series of training segments). but say they have no meaning. they have an experience documentation program but both ignore or admit its existance. you can see that in some of the responces here. I would like to see a thread where we could all tell stories of how we had to save some newby's but from OOA and what ever. The sad side is that if it were not for those really qualified to do those dives the fatalities would be much higher. because they are not . a problem is not recognized. Others are correct you should be able to dive based on solely an experience book with out any formal training. That would fall in line with the position of all leanring past OW,,,, but outside agencies again do not agree with that concept. If that were the case we would never have to show a nitrox card to get it, we would only say we have experience using it. we would never have to show a cert card to go on a commercial dive trip,, we would just say we have experienced for years. It it were true operators would not have to make you sign a waiver to dive. I would make the argument that if the training was good and screening of that training was done by operators to insure training matched the dive we would not have much reason for a waiver if any as it relates to the dive portion. Of course the boat insurer would not go for that. (high risk) the boat would not go for that ( loss of revenues) and everyone needs everything to pass the buck to the diver. The saddest part is that the diver probably does not even know how the system has stacked the deck against the diver by putting the risk he is taking and diving beyond his provable documented certified training. they are being told after class there is no limits to their OW card. aT THE POINT OF THE CARD ISSUING THE STUDENT STILL CANT PUT A TANK ON WITH OUT IT FALLING OUT.

I'm getting concerned about your well being. I am serious. You seem to be very upset about something that no one should be this upset over.

 

[yle]

I agree. I have about 80 dives with PADI, about 2 years as a commercial diver medic (and that is a different industry. In that industry professionalism and good conduct is expected from Instructors, Students, Divers and Team Leaders, I am slowly coming around to the recreational aspect of diving but ignoring any safety advice, I will never view you as a diver. You are a liability and a wrongful death lawsuit filed by your family when you inevitably kill yourself through stupidity waiting to happen.

I have noticed there is a LOT of leeway with PADI, but I thought this case in particular (out of all the open water courses I've helped out on so far, I have never had a student backchat an instructor or ignore important safety advice) was notable and I personally don't feel this student should have been certified.

Very interesting... thank you for sharing the info on your background. Easy to see how going from your training in commercial diving to assisting with an OW class could be quite an adjustment.

Ultimately the solution is to talk to the instructor. Even though PADI says you're a "DMT", your instructor should have the sense to consider your background when you offer your opinions. If not, you should find another instructor to work with.

 

[Ukmc]

I suppose it is up to a dive shop. I am not sure how much they are legally liable if something were to happen if the depth was exceeded beyond recommended depth on the certification. Can the shop get in trouble? I mean we are adults... I have not had a shop asked me for anything other than OW and NitrOx cards, but last trip the shop would not take my 11 yo down past 45ft (not sure where they come up with that number), supposedly because of his junior cert. Fortunately, he had his AOW and they were fine with that, otherwise, they were going to make me pay for an extra DM.

 

[Lostdiver71]

How else could it be? If the certifying instructor's judgment was that someone met standards and some unknown spectator has a different judgment, how could any agency act on that?

They will, however, act if specific standards are not met as determined by objective evidence, not a disagreement about judgment. For example, let's say you observed the instructor and student go to 80 feet during an OW training dive. They will act on something like that, because it is not judgment. They will, however, investigate the situation first.

Here are two stories from my experience that shows how the process works.

One: When I was still a fairly new diver, I was diving in a south Pacific resort area, and for two days one of the divers on our boat was a young man from the Netherlands. He was a very poor diver, and I felt that the DM should have paid more attention to him. On both dives the first day, he was low on air very quickly, and the DM sent him to the surface alone, which concerned me. On the second day, the same thing happened on the first dive, after which the diver overate during the surface interval and felt too sick to do the second dive. When we got back to the shop, I was shocked to see him greeted by an instructor. It turned out the four dives those two days, only 3 of which he did, were his OW certification dives. He had done no skills on those dives, and his instructor was not present. He was now a certified diver.

As soon as I got home, I sent a letter to PADI. I got a response back quickly, thanking me and telling me they would investigate the matter thoroughly. They told me I would not be told the results of the investigation. I later checked the PADI website and saw that the instructor had been expelled. In order to do that, they must have checked the dates I was there, determined who had been certified, contacted that individual, and decided that what I had told them was true. They would not have done it just on my say-so, and I would not expect them to.

Two: In my first two years as a professional, I was at first a DM and then an AI assisting in classes, and I assisted in a lot of OW dives in a local reservoir, usually with one specific instructor. All the classes were done with a PVC platform we installed for each class, with that platform suspended from 4 buoys. The CESAs were done very carefully and by the book. The instructor took the students up one of the lines to the buoy on the surface. After students are certified, most receive surveys from PADI, and one of those students (only one) had indicated that the instructor had not used an ascent line for the CESA, as is required. As a result, PADI had opened an investigation of the instructor. They eventually decided that the student was mistaken, probably because everyone else in the class remembered using a line.

If PADI gets multiple complaints or even one that they believe could result in serious liability they will investigate. The investigation could be as simple as sending questionnaires to the Instructors student or I have seen them actually send in ringers to take classes from the Instructor to make sure that he is following standards. I actually had one student in a class claim that I did not teach the class all of the required skills. The rest of the class including her boyfriend confirmed that I did in fact teach all of the skills that she claimed I neglected and PADI closed the case. I even took extra time to work with her 1 on 1, at no charge, to master several skills that she was having problems with and she did master them well enough for me to certify her as an OW diver. I even dove with them the day after the OW class and she did well on the dives. She was not the nicest person during the class and I think that she was mad that I would not let her buddy with her boyfriend during training because I did not want her to become dependent on him. He understood, the other couples in the class understood, but she didn't.

 

[Diving Dubai]

but last trip the shop would not take my 11 yo down past 45ft (not sure where they come up with that number), supposedly because of his junior cert

For that number the PADI Instructor Manual has an explicit statement in the general standards regarding Junior Divers (divers under 15) that says

After certification, 10-11 year olds are restricted to diving with a parent, guardian or PADI Professional to 12
metre/40 feet maximum depth; 12-14 year olds must dive with an adult certified diver.

Also in the AoW section, it also clearly states that:

Note: 10 and 11-year-old divers may only earn a Junior Adventure Diver certification (because AOW specialities each have minimum age restrictions)

These are Hard standards - i.e. not recommendations, and not a depth limit just for training.

We (my shop) would be cautious when allowing a young Junior diver to make a dive. Although the standards state Parent or Guardian, if that Adult was newly qualified or didn't have a lot of experience, we would insist that they had a dedicated Pro diver diving just with them.

Because Parents are generally protective of their offspring we've never had push back on that one (but obviously it's how you present the facts)

 

[Zef]

Just curious when the 18meter (60ft) OW standard was implemented.

I did my initial NAUI OW training in 1995 as a university course and I don't recall any discussion of depth limit other the recreational depth limit (40m).

Due to a health issue at the time that required me to be cleared to dive by a DAN affiliated physician, I wound up not being able to do the check-out dives to complete the certification process until a few years later.

When I was finally able to do the check out dives (1998) I linked up with an SSI affiliated shop. The shop/instructor allowed me to challenge the course by taking the written exam and join them for the check-out dives with the class that was going on at the time. Again, there was never any discussion about depth limit other than the recreation diving depth limit.

Fast forward a few years (2000) and the ship I was stationed on stopped in Israel for a few weeks so the Marines on board could participate in an exercise with the Israeli army. A few of us went down to Eilat to dive. I recall that there were 3 divers in our group that only had PADI open water certification and the dive op made them do a crash course for advanced open water so they could do some of the dives that were planned. The rest of us went sight seeing while they did the classroom work.

I was surprised that I was not required to do the advanced open water training and when I inquired about it I was told that the SSI training at that time was considered adequate because it consisted of 7 vs 5 open water dives, as well as navigation and some other aspects that PADI covered in their AOW course. I didn't question it further.

In fact I had been diving with my SSI open water cert card for years and years without issue until one of my daughters wanted to get certified...she took a NAUI course through the club on base. I decided I might want to go pro at some point (which I did) and to do that it didn't matter how well I dived, I needed the certifications in the training continuum, so I took the NAUI Advanced Diver course.

While out on a dive with some folks from the club who had gotten certified Advanced Diver in the class just prior to the one I took, I started giving the dive brief when one of them questioned why I was giving the brief. I welcomed them to give the brief but mentioned I was the most experienced diver present....they were confused because they knew I had just gotten Advanced Diver certified. I mentioned I started diving in '95 which made them even more confused because based on their experience the Advanced diver course was a class that one takes fairly soon after their basic OW cert course....I explained that I had never had a compelling reason to do any certification course past my basic open water certification until then.

So back to my question....when did all the hubris about depth limit become an issue that it is stressed in open water classes the way it currently seems to be?

-Z

 

[Diving Dubai]

So back to my question....when did all the hubris about depth limit become an issue that it is stressed in open water classes the way it currently seems to be?

You would need to research posts by Boulder John who has discussed this ad infinitum.

People get confused by what is laid down as training standards (i.e. max depth during training) and how that is applied to real life.

Agencies recommend, sensibly that a maximum depth is respected until that person gains experience.

Dive centres apply a depth rating based on certification since that is the simplest way to make a delineation - even if there can be a number of exceptions. And yes as stated many times Dive centres will say "It's a PADI rule" when it isn't - because that moves the argument away from them.

We all know a cert card can be a meaningless gauge of experience, but unless you line by line check a logbook and insist on a guided check dive to validate that divers capabilities, then where as a dive centre, do you draw a line?

 

[Zef]

You would need to research posts by Boulder John who has discussed this ad infinitum.

People get confused by what is laid down as training standards (i.e. max depth during training) and how that is applied to real life.

Agencies recommend, sensibly that a maximum depth is respected until that person gains experience.

Dive centres apply a depth rating based on certification since that is the simplest way to make a delineation - even if there can be a number of exceptions. And yes as stated many times Dive centres will say "It's a PADI rule" when it isn't - because that moves the argument away from them.

We all know a cert card can be a meaningless gauge of experience, but unless you line by line check a logbook and insist on a guided check dive to validate that divers capabilities, then where as a dive centre, do you draw a line?

I am familiar with some of the discussions on this topic and have participated in one or two as well. I am of the school of thought that the depth limits are for training purposes and divers are free to choose to what depths they dive to.

I am a part of a club that also has a dive school here in Belgium and had a discussion in French about this with the head of the school...he contends that for a dive center or school to maintain their PADI rating that they need to follow the limits set forth by PADI on all dives, training or otherwise....perhaps there is some truth to that but I have not dug in to verify it, but that would be for dives organized by the club/school and not as individuals in my opinion.

I am just interested as to about what year training agencies started defining depth limits or perhaps a better question is when about was it that those training depth limits became a part of the prevailing mentality of the diving community?

-Z

 

[Edward3c]

...
I am just interested as to about what year training agencies started defining depth limits or perhaps a better question is when about was it that those training depth limits became a part of the prevailing mentality of the diving community?

-Z

This is relevant only for BSAC.

In the mid 1980s a radical change was introduced creating the current BSAC diver grades and depth limits: Novice (Ocean Diver) [20m], Sports Diver [35m], Dive Leader [50m] and Advanced Diver [50m]. Prior to the change divers, or trainees, for any grade could in theory dive to 50m

 

[Diving Dubai]

What @Edward3c doesn't make clear, so it's just worth expanding, qualifying as a next level diver, does not' automatically give you the increased depth rating, you are required to make some post cert depth progression dives.

Thus someone who has taken a DL course, may choose not to take those dives and thus still be limited to 35m (unless that's changed)