PADI - Concerns about students skills.

[Edward3c]

What @Edward3c doesn't make clear, so it's just worth expanding, qualifying as a next level diver, does not' automatically give you the increased depth rating, you are required to make some post cert depth progression dives.

Thus someone who has taken a DL course, may choose not to take those dives and thus still be limited to 35m (unless that's changed)

@Diving Dubai is right, I didn't include the depth progression so as not to confuse, however:
Sports Diver (SD) on qualification is limited to 20m; progression dives must be lead by an instructor to 25, 30 and 35m are required to achieve the grade depth.
Dive Leader (DL) on qualification is 35m (unless the SD depth progression dives haven't been done); depth progression dives to 40, 45 and 50m are to be done ideally with an instructor, but can be undertaken with a LD or above with appropriate experience.

 

[Zef]

@Diving Dubai is right, I didn't include the depth progression so as not to confuse, however:
Sports Diver (SD) on qualification is limited to 20m; progression dives must be lead by an instructor to 25, 30 and 35m are required to achieve the grade depth.
Dive Leader (DL) on qualification is 35m (unless the SD depth progression dives haven't been done); depth progression dives to 40, 45 and 50m are to be done ideally with an instructor, but can be undertaken with a LD or above with appropriate experience.

Thanks for this insight about BSAC....I dive with some BSAC certified divers so am somewhat familiar with BSAC's structure and know about the depth limits the organization imposes on their divers based on certification levels.

What I was referring to in my question/posts is more geared towards NAUI, PADI, SSI, etc....who, arguably, do not impose depth limits on divers after certification other than the recreational depth limit....there was a time that this was never discussed, were not in the mind of the public/divers but then there came a point where it gained a significant level of relevance in the minds of the diving public certified by these agencies....I am just wondering when that paradigm shift occurred as it did not seem to exist, or at least I did not become aware of the issue until I was diving in Eilat in 2000.....other than my checkout dives, that was the first time I dived with a dive op since. In 2008 I was Phucket diving and presented my SSI open water diver card and they imposed no limits on me based on my certification, at least not that I noted....though on the day we splashed because of people not showing up there was a 1 to 1 diver to divemaster ratio...it was great, had private guide who had enough experience to know where all the macro life lived at the 3 sites we visited.

-Z

 

[Edward3c]

Thanks for this insight about BSAC....I dive with some BSAC certified divers so am somewhat familiar with BSAC's structure and know about the depth limits the organization imposes on their divers based on certification levels.

What I was referring to in my question/posts is more geared towards NAUI, PADI, SSI, etc....who, arguably, do not impose depth limits on divers after certification other than the recreational depth limit....there was a time that this was never discussed, were not in the mind of the public/divers but then there came a point where it gained a significant level of relevance in the minds of the diving public certified by these agencies....I am just wondering when that paradigm shift occurred as it did not seem to exist, or at least I did not become aware of the issue until I was diving in Eilat in 2000.....other than my checkout dives, that was the first time I dived with a dive op since. In 2008 I was Phucket diving and presented my SSI open water diver card and they imposed no limits on me based on my certification, at least not that I noted....though on the day we splashed because of people not showing up there was a 1 to 1 diver to divemaster ratio...it was great, had private guide who had enough experience to know where all the macro life lived at the 3 sites we visited.

-Z

You'll find it comes down to liability.

What's the chance of an operator being prosecuted in Thailand compared to the Red Sea, Europe or the US?

 

[Zef]

You'll find it comes down to liability.

What's the chance of an operator being prosecuted in Thailand compared to the Red Sea, Europe or the US?

I don't disagree with you....but I am seeking the "when" not the "why".

-Z

 

[tursiops]

I don't disagree with you....but I am seeking the "when" not the "why".

-Z

It's been discussed on SB. If you care to search I'm sure you'll find it.

 

[Edward3c]

I don't disagree with you....but I am seeking the "when" not the "why".

-Z

The when and why are interlinked.

It could be, for the Red Sea, when a diver tried to claim the operator allowed them to dive to 47m on a PADI OW card. Which resulted in a chamber ride and hospital bills in excess of £75,000 which the diver's insurance refused to pay. The individual had to sell their house in the UK to cover the bill.

 

[boulderjohn]

So back to my question....when did all the hubris about depth limit become an issue that it is stressed in open water classes the way it currently seems to be?

You would need to research posts by Boulder John who has discussed this ad infinitum.

I have only been diving for a little short of a quarter century, and I have only been a professional for 15 years. Things have not changed in that time. What you are seeing primarily is highly misinformed people making highly misinformed statements over and over and over and over again. Oftentimes they are quite sincerely quoting other misinformed people who heard it from others misinformed people, etc.

Students are told that they should dive within the limits of their training and experience. When they do their first dives after certification, that experience is limited to their training, but as they dive, their training AND experience grow. They can use their best judgment as to how sufficiently it has grown to enable them to extend those limits.

Now, what has some people confused is that a number of dive operations (NOT agencies) have established their own rules to limit their own liabilities, and those rules may in fact come from their insurance policy. They may require additional certification for deeper dives. That is their rule, not the agency's. They will, however, sometimes lie about it. When I did a liveaboard in Australia, we had limits on our diving imposed upon us, and they said it was because of PADI policy which they could not violate. I talked with the director after he said that. When I told him PADI had no such policy, he admitted that it was a company policy. They just wanted to shift the blame and say they had no choice in the matter.

 

[Angelo Farina]

About the "when" depth limit were issued, I can answer for Italy.
Scuba training here started at the end of the forties (around 1948) thanks to pioneers as Luigi Ferraro and Duilio Marcante.
Scuba Diving Education | Luigi Ferraro
Ferraro was a close friend of Cousteau, and together they had a big influence inside the just-born CMAS, in the fifties.
The didactic standard developed by Ferraro was based on three levels (three "stars" in CMAS).
At first level (novice) there was a depth limit of 15m, buddy was mandatory, and no deco.
At second level (intermediate) the depth limit was 30m, again with buddy and no deco.
At third level (expert) the depth limit was 50m, deco was allowed, but the buddy was still mandatory.
All three levels were fully recreational, "tech" was considered, at the time, only for gas mixtures and depth greater than 50m.
Interesting to be noted that, even at the first level, the certification did also allow for using CC rebreathers in pure oxygen down to 10m. Actually, scuba diving training was mostly done employing these very dangerous CC rebreathers, and only at the end of the course students were allowed to use compressed-air OC scuba systems.This remained unchanged until 1980, so when I was trained (1975-1978) i went through those three degrees., and I was using the CC oxygen rebreather
No one was enforcing the limits, indeed, as scuba diving was a truly DIY experience: there were no "dive shops", no "diving centers", no "professional instructors", as training was entirely done in clubs, by volunteer instructors which were not paid (not they did have any insurance or civil legal liability). Everyone was responsible for himself, both during training and after, and so everyone had to enforce himself his depth limits.
Of course, people were exceeding them systematically.
Hence, already at 1st degree the course was lasting 6 to 9 months, including complete training for deco and repetitive dives the same day, dives in lakes at altitude, etc.
This means that here there was not a time where depth limit started to be employed. They have all been there since the fifties...

 

[Zef]

The when and why are interlinked.

It could be, for the Red Sea, when a diver tried to claim the operator allowed them to dive to 47m on a PADI OW card. Which resulted in a chamber ride and hospital bills in excess of £75,000 which the diver's insurance refused to pay. The individual had to sell their house in the UK to cover the bill.

I think you have chosen a bad example as 47m is past the recreational diving limit of 40m....I can totally understand why an insurance company might balk at picking up the tab for someone's negligence of exceeding a fairly hard depth standard such as 40m...yes I know that BSAC and CMAS, and perhaps a couple of other training organizations specify a deeper depth limit but they also tend to include decompression procedures in their training regime for recreational diving, which the big 3 (PADI, NAUI, SSI) does not.

-Z

 

[Edward3c]

I think you have chosen a bad example as 47m is past the recreational diving limit of 40m....I can totally understand why an insurance company might balk at picking up the tab for someone's negligence of exceeding a fairly hard depth standard such as 40m...yes I know that BSAC and CMAS, and perhaps a couple of other training organizations specify a deeper depth limit but they also tend to include decompression procedures in their training regime for recreational diving, which the big 3 (PADI, NAUI, SSI) does not.

-Z

Their insurance turned them down for exceeding 60ft.