PADI AOW+ certs and depth rating

[afieldofblue]

Your question(s) only become important following an incident, and the resulting claim.

I can only speak from the UK prospective. Not all dive insurance companies cover diving beyond formal training depth limits; even those that do have an exclusion clause (usually well hidden away) that if depth was a contributing factor the diver must have been formally certified to the depth. If I took a buddy past their training certification (the depth they had been formally signed off at) and there was an incident, I would be deemed to have dived outside BSAC’s Safe Diving and would have to fund my own defence, as BSAC’s 3rd Party Liability cover is based on me following the guidance.

Yeah, it's a tricky one since local regulations prevail...
I think I'm still considering the matter from an incorrect prespective, forgetting that in RSTC divers are autonomous in buddy teams, sign a liability release outside Europe, and that a dive guide doesn't even need to be in the water (indirect supervision), and the divers don't need to follow the guide, being ultimately responsible for the dive plan and subsequent actions.
So I guess it would be up to the service provider (dive shop) and guide to justify that they put everything in place to conduct the activity safely, but that ultimately the responsibility is the diver's only.
And it's also up to the diver to check what their insurance covers, under what conditions.

Completely different in the French setting for instance, where the structure + staff is held 100% reponsible in case of an accident and has to justify its way out, proving that everything was done legally (respecting legally set depths, equipement maintenance obligations etc)

 

[Edward3c]

Yeah, it's a tricky one since local regulations prevail...
I think I'm still considering the matter from an incorrect prespective, forgetting that in RSTC divers are autonomous in buddy teams, sign a liability release outside Europe, and that a dive guide doesn't even need to be in the water (indirect supervision), and the divers don't need to follow the guide, being ultimately responsible for the dive plan and subsequent actions.
So I guess it would be up to the service provider (dive shop) and guide to justify that they put everything in place to conduct the activity safely, but that ultimately the responsibility is the diver's only.
And it's also up to the diver to check what their insurance covers, under what conditions.

Completely different in the French setting for instance, where the structure + staff is held 100% reponsible in case of an accident and has to justify its way out, proving that everything was done legally (respecting legally set depths, equipement maintenance obligations etc)

There are countries where recreational diving now has legislation governing it. For example; Belize unless your diving off your own boat with your own equipemnt, vertually any other scenario falls under the regulsations. I'm hearing Thailand are going down the same route.

 

[afieldofblue]

There are countries where recreational diving now has legislation governing it. For example; Belize unless your diving off your own boat with your own equipemnt, vertually any other scenario falls under the regulsations. I'm hearing Thailand are going down the same route.

Sounds logical - I've seen the ( sometimes cryptical ) regulations of the Thai National Parks I work in (no "deco dives", max. rec. depth 30m, minimal equipement, no reef hooks, no gloves etc...)

 

[afieldofblue]

To add to the discussion, the email I received from PADI makes it quite clear:

---------

PADI is a training organization which provides guidelines and training standards to our PADI members for training dives.
PADI Standards do not, however, supersede local laws or regulations.

As a training organisation PADI creates training standards, not standards for “fun dives” however PADI members may use PADI standards as recommended best practices when they are conducting non-training dives.

The PADI Safe diving practices statement of understanding is a good example.
In such situations you should always follow the local laws , then apply your training experience, using your own judgement and also conduct everything in a fashion that would be defendable in a court of law.
All PADI Divers are encouraged to dive within their training and experience.

-------------

So yep - no depth limit for an Open Water diver in a non-training context - only recommendations.

And for the operator the recommendation is to err on the side of caution, which often leads operators to restrict divers to the max depth set in the standards of the training they received, ie 18m for OW, 30m for AOW...

I imagine this is also the case for all other RSTC orgs. (SDI, SSI, NAUI etc).
This should be stated a little more clearly in the instructor manual.

Very interesting also to understand that the so-called certification cards are simply training records, quite different from an actual certification opening legal prerogatives.

The focus on local regulations is also interesting. France's max rec. depth, legally set in the Code du Sport is 60m on air, and the legal max PpO2 for nitrox is set at 1.6 for instance ( Gov. site here: Arrêté du 6 avril 2012 modifiant certaines dispositions réglementaires (Arrêtés) du code du sport relatives à la plongée subaquatique | Legifrance ).

But I guess there's nothing wrong with coming up with one's own standards, as long as they're more conservative than local regulations

Really enlightening, all this!
cheers

 

[Storker]

So yep - no depth limit for an Open Water diver in a non-training context - only recommendations.

Again, that depends on local conditions. If I were the dive leader for the day, and you came to me with a still warm OW cert and told me you were planning a dive to 30m, my answer would be "Nope. Not on my watch, mate". Whatever you do on an unorganized shore dive or from your own boat isn't my business, but if I'm your dive leader it's my (and my club's) safety rules which apply.

 

[ThatDogDontHunt]

There are countries where recreational diving now has legislation governing it. For example; Belize unless your diving off your own boat with your own equipemnt, vertually any other scenario falls under the regulsations. I'm hearing Thailand are going down the same route.

I believe if you double check the Belize thing is simply a "standard code of best practice" for any op that wants to be a member of the Belize Tourism Board. It is not government legislation.

It also is very weakly worded as the rules only apply to "guided dives". The last Belize op I dove with was very clear that they did not provide guided dives. They did put a DM in the water whom you could follow if you wanted, but it was not a guided dive...

 

[Edward3c]

I believe if you double check the Belize thing is simply a "standard code of best practice" for any op that wants to be a member of the Belize Tourism Board. It is not government legislation.

It also is very weakly worded as the rules only apply to "guided dives". The last Belize op I dove with was very clear that they did not provide guided dives. They did put a DM in the water whom you could follow if you wanted, but it was not a guided dive...

This link to a Belizean Statutory Instrument is pretty clear it is compulsory.

You will only find out if your dive operator is playing by the rules when something goes wrong and you make an insurance claim.

 

[scubadada]

Interesting discussion.

I have dived with many operators who have required AOW for deeper dives, never asked for Deep Diver specialty. Many of these dives either were below 100 feet or had the potential for a greater depth. Common examples would be Spiegel Grove, Duane, and Bibb in Key Largo.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Interesting discussion.

I have dived with many operators who have required AOW for deeper dives, never asked for Deep Diver specialty. Many of these dives either were below 100 feet or had the potential for a greater depth. Common examples would be Spiegel Grove, Duane, and Bibb in Key Largo.

In these cases what they are doing is using the AOW card as an additional liability release for the boat since many keys ops don't put a DM in the water. They have to keep customers happy. The responsible keys ops I've used will go to a hard bottom no more than 60 feet if there are any OW divers on the boat unless they are with an instructor in an actual class. A DM can't lead an OW diver to the well deck of the Grove for example.

A number of other locations will say you need AOW to dive deeper than 60ft but have no problem putting the newly minted AOW with a total of 10 dives on a 100ft wall dive. That they have no business being there is irrelevant. They have a card that says they are qualified to 100 ft so it's on the diver.

Personally, standards are standards if I'm guiding someone or teaching. I won't go beyond depth standards with a person not qualified to do them. AOW? 100ft is the max. Deep? 130 even though I'd prefer a tech cert beyond 100.

Last week I was on vacation and there was an initial chance of doing dives to 165 in a RAID deco class but that fell through due to circumstances. I was ok with that because I wasn't going to be the instructor. I was just going to tag along. The person who would be teaching was my tech instructor trainer. So we ended up just doing recreational depth fun dives with some skill practice and I did some touristy stuff in Brockville.

My experience with the lawyers who have contacted me to consult on cases has been that if a dive pro takes a person beyond their recommended levels and is getting any kind of compensation is taking quite a risk if an accident happens. That agency XYZ says their standards only apply to training is setting the pro up.

In a court of law, a jury is going to listen to the lawyer asking how can someone profess to adhere to standards in one area and disregard them in another? They don't care about the words. They are going to be looking at the wife and kids who lost a husband and father because you took them to 120 ft when they didn't have the training to be there.

As long as you observe the limits in any situation where you are leading the dive, you can say that you did not take an unnecessary risk with the person. Or add a level of risk that contributed to their death.

 

[AdivingBel]

Interesting thread... I abide by the your boat, your rules policy. I only ask as a dive traveler that if as an op/dm/guide you choose to apply training standards to non-training dives or other depth limitations of your choosing (whatever your reasons ) you are upfront about it on first contact. I have the resources and will do the legwork to be informed of local laws and regulations and will abide by them as well. At this point I expect to be able to dive to the accepted max recreational depths without having to worry about being tisk-tisked. I'm not unreasonable. I won't walk-in off the street and demand a particular advanced dive. I'm happy to do a check-out dive, pre-dive assessment, or answer questions concerning my experience (short of the Scuba Inquisition ). I'm easy going on dive trips, but I don't like surprises of this nature. It harshes my zen.