Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[Thalassamania]

In point of fact even after NAUI promulgated it's texts, NAUI never required the use of any specific text.

 

[neil]

Not saying that your experience with the QA process isn't poor... but just for clarification, you are never intended to know what PADI has actually done to remediate that instructor. It *feels* like we should be able to hear all the conversations, and to really make sure that that BAD instructor is slapped down, but we don't get to. All of our righteous indignation has no outlet.
BTW, it doesn't improve. When PADI does finish their QA investigation, and do send you the email that says "Thank you. We now consider this matter closed." it will be about as satisfying as kissing your sister. The fact that we don't know what was done in no way means that *nothing* was done, though, and we need to remember that making the report was the right thing, and for the "reporter" that's where it ends.
kari

I found that to be the case, too. I once had a QA complaint and sent it in complete with 8x10 color glossies with a paragraph on the back explaining what each one was, and NEVER heard back from them except to acknowledge they had received the materials.

 

[Cacia]

The problem with most "oversight" in my experience is the agency only operates in it's own best interest, how things reflect on them, vs how their actions will impact the outcome. I could give examples, but it gets too contentious.

basically the actions usually regard

paperwork

image

liabilty exposure

 

[Puffer Fish]

With all due respect (and that's a lot since you beat me by about 300 NAUI #s), I stand by my statement. NAUI has never required the use of specific texts or materials. In point of fact, in 1973, NAUI did not have any materials but suggested the use of "the New Science of Skin and Scuba." NAUI's first official materials did not come out until the mid 1980s (the NAUI Textbook I).

I still have copies of that book somewhere around here. I would trust your comments on that, as I don't actually remember if it was suggested or strongly suggested or required. My course was in San Diego, and we used that book for all the class presentations. It may have been covered a 100 times, for all I know, as the 2 hours of sleep made things a bit blurry.

And during that time frame I was teaching in Panama, and due to the fairly complex diving environment, went way beyond the minimum class requirement. At the same time, our friendly local Padi instructor was teaching a basic class. During one 4 month stretch, I had 7 open water rescues of his students, after they were certified (I was the presendent of the A & P dive club, and we did weekend LCM dives).

I'm still not sure how a global dive organization can effectively oversee their instuctors. If they did, I would not have been surprized if I would have been the one in trouble, as my course was at least 50% longer than the minimum, and our friendly PADI instructor was teaching everything by the book (I know, because I always helped with his final checkout dives).

 

[Walter]

To me, it seems like a natural progression. The "swim UW in scuba" is part of each pool session, and students tend to improve at each opportunity.

What other examples do you have? :blinking:

kari

I guess you could look at it like that. OTOH, you could start them off right at the beginning and cut the learning curve a great deal. Your assignment, should you decide to accept it, is to find other examples. As usual, if you or any of your IM force is caught or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.

 

[Thalassamania]

I still have copies of that book somewhere around here. I would trust your comments on that, as I don't actually remember if it was suggested or strongly suggested or required. My course was in San Diego, and we used that book for all the class presentations. It may have been covered a 100 times, for all I know, as the 2 hours of sleep made things a bit blurry.

1. What book are you refering to? New Science?
2. When was this? 1974 or 75?
3. Who was the Course Director? Flahan? Graver? Bangasser?
4. Where in San Diego was the ITC held?

I suspect that you had a CD who had his own opinions about what policy should be.

 

[jbd]

Interesting. So, if a student achieves the minimum standards set out by NAUI, the instructor can deny them an OW certification based on a subjective set of additions? To me this invalidates the standards. Again, I do agree that the flexibility to teach information and skills in addition to the standards is good, I just can't see how each instructor is permitted to change them simply on their own. If the standards are indeed a minimum, when an instructor adds requirements the revision seems to me to become an absolute. A student can meet the minimum, but if they can't meet the added requirements, then they will not receive a certification.

Does the student know what the minimum standards are and what are additional requirements added by the instructor?

Ted,

An example. From the NAUI S&P manual, regarding the Scuba Diver Course i.e an OW diver. Underwater Skills-- Hover without support or significant movement Thats all tha manual says. What does that mean? Pretty obviously it will mean different things to different people in different situations. I have heard the sggestion that if the student can hold the hover for one minute then that is acceptable. I don't find that acceptable and look on the situation much differently. I consider that "standard" to be addressing buoyancy control. I consider buoyancy control to be a critical skill in diving. So much so, that I won't certify anyone who can't demonstrate a fairly high degree of buoyancy control. I won't even take them to the OW cert dives unless they demonstrate the skill level I am looking for during the confined water session. To this end I have created a game that the students start the very first session on scuba and it continues throughout the rest of the course. I demonstrate the game to the students and show them precisely what they are expected to demonstrate by the end of the course.

Yes, it is important that the instructor clearly define the expected performance criteria to complete the course.

 

[rawls]

I have one example right here for ya, Darlin.

Session 1

7. Swim underwater with scuba equipment while maintaining control of both direction and depth......

Session 2

11. Adjust for proper weighting..........

Session 3

1. Independently establish neutral buoyancy under water........

The skill taught in pool session 2 (proper weighting) is one of the first skills a student should learn. The skill taught in pool session 3 (neutral buoyancy) should come right after weighting. Both are necessary before a student and accomplish the skill required in pool session 1 (swimming underwater on SCUBA while maintaining control of depth).

Look at your standards with an open, questioning mind

Walter,

Here is a basic progression of our PADI pool sessions during the first pool session. They are integrated and do not necessarily follow the session guidelines for confined water dives 1, 2, 3...

Before even leaving the shop for the pool, we estimate the required weight for each student. If it is during the summer, they do the swim, float and tread by the LDS. It makes it easier to estimate weighting requirements based on the buoyancy of the student during the float.

At the pool we have the students put their gear together and do gear checks. If it is the winter, they then do the swim, float and tread.

Next we get them in the shallow end of the pool and adjust weighting (without gear) until they can sit comfortably on the bottom holding a normal breath.

Next we have them drop their heads under water and breathe from a snorkel.

Then we have them flood their masks and breathe from the snorkel as well as do mask clears.

Next we do mask removal, replacement and clearing.

We then get them to bring their gear into the water and have them breathe through the regulator underwater.

Next we do regulator clears and breathing through a free flowing regulator.

We then do donning and ditching then redonning.

At this point we put the skills together...Ditching, donning, mask removal, regulator removal while mask is off, replacing regulator, replacing mask and clearing mask.

Next we do regulator retrieval.

Next we do fin pivots.

When the students obtain neutral buoyancy we get them to slowly move to the deep end of the pool. This is for the purpose of practicing equalization...This is not an all inclusive list for session one. We are in the pool for about 4-5 hours the first day, so there are more skills practice. You can, however, get an idea of the progression.

We do not necessarily follow the progression in the PADI instructor's manual, but we do include all of the standards as set forth in the manual. Some session 2 skills are included in session one, 3 in session 2, etc...PADI has never said a thing about the way we do our progressions and they are represented well being course directors are there frequently teaching IDC. I don't understand why so many of you would say that a PADI course is inflexible. We are allowed tremendous amounts of flexibility as long as the standards are met.

One thing that is not flexible is we do not allow a student to almost perform a skill and pass. The student must perform the skill to standard before they are certified. They can however move to another skill and go back and perform the skill they didn't meet, but they have to perform every skill to standard before they are certified. No if, and's or but's.

Didactically we are very thorough. We go way beyond the manual and our main focus is teaching the students the why's. How and why does Boyle's, Charle's, Henry's and Dalton's Law apply to you as divers. Why is the suggested recreational depth limit 130'....Mr Henry and partial pressures. We do not say never hold your breath underwater. We teach the students why you never hold your breath U/W...Boyle's Law. Direct effects and indirect effects of pressure in detail, dive injuries in detail. We include physics and physiology in detail...at the level a new diver can understand. We don't discuss compartment theory or M-values...

PADI has never approached us and said, you are covering too much information for this class.

Our classes are thorough and by the time our students are certified they are very knowledgable divers. What the student does or does not do with the knowledge afterwards is beyond our control, but we have done our job and have done it well.

This by no means a sarcastic reply. I am simply presenting our method of teaching students. One can agree or disagree.

 

[jbd]

:blahblah: :blahblah: :furious: :krach: :boxing_sm :smash:

So true, so true. But ya gotta admit it keeps scubaboard entertaining at times

 

[Walter]

Walter,

Here is a basic progression of our PADI pool sessions during the first pool session. They are integrated and do not necessarily follow the session guidelines for confined water dives 1, 2, 3...

Before even leaving the shop for the pool, we estimate the required weight for each student. If it is during the summer, they do the swim, float and tread by the LDS. It makes it easier to estimate weighting requirements based on the buoyancy of the student during the float.

At the pool we have the students put their gear together and do gear checks. If it is the winter, they then do the swim, float and tread.

Next we get them in the shallow end of the pool and adjust weighting (without gear) until they can sit comfortably on the bottom holding a normal breath.

Next we have them drop their heads under water and breathe from a snorkel.

Then we have them flood their masks and breathe from the snorkel as well as do mask clears.

Next we do mask removal, replacement and clearing.

We then get them to bring their gear into the water and have them breathe through the regulator underwater.

Next we do regulator clears and breathing through a free flowing regulator.

We then do donning and ditching then redonning.

At this point we put the skills together...Ditching, donning, mask removal, regulator removal while mask is off, replacing regulator, replacing mask and clearing mask.

Next we do regulator retrieval.

Next we do fin pivots.

When the students obtain neutral buoyancy we get them to slowly move to the deep end of the pool. This is for the purpose of practicing equalization...This is not an all inclusive list for session one. We are in the pool for about 4-5 hours the first day, so there are more skills practice. You can, however, get an idea of the progression.

We do not necessarily follow the progression in the PADI instructor's manual, but we do include all of the standards as set forth in the manual. Some session 2 skills are included in session one, 3 in session 2, etc...PADI has never said a thing about the way we do our progressions and they are represented well being course directors are there frequently teaching IDC. I don't understand why so many of you would say that a PADI course is inflexible. We are allowed tremendous amounts of flexibility as long as the standards are met.

One thing that is not flexible is we do not allow a student to almost perform a skill and pass. The student must perform the skill to standard before they are certified. They can however move to another skill and go back and perform the skill they didn't meet, but they have to perform every skill to standard before they are certified. No if, and's or but's.

Didactically we are very thorough. We go way beyond the manual and our main focus is teaching the students the why's. How and why does Boyle's, Charle's, Henry's and Dalton's Law apply to you as divers. Why is the suggested recreational depth limit 130'....Mr Henry and partial pressures. We do not say never hold your breath underwater. We teach the students why you never hold your breath U/W...Boyle's Law. Direct effects and indirect effects of pressure in detail, dive injuries in detail. We include physics and physiology in detail...at the level a new diver can understand. We don't discuss compartment theory or M-values...

PADI has never approached us and said, you are covering too much information for this class.

Our classes are thorough and by the time our students are certified they are very knowledgable divers. What the student does or does not do with the knowledge afterwards is beyond our control, but we have done our job and have done it well.

This by no means a sarcastic reply. I am simply presenting our method of teaching students. One can agree or disagree.

Sounds like you are doing an excellent job. I won't report you for violating standards, but you are. Perhaps you should crossover to an agency that allows your method of teaching inside its standards.