divinginn
Contributor
walter,how many checkout dives does ymca require now,when i took mine in 1980 we did one dive in troy springs then snorkled down the river,but that was after 3 months of class and pool work,it was a college class.
Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)
- Thread starter sytech
- Start date
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Thalassamania:
OOPS
"OK, let's stretch it back tp post 22, that quote was, "but I have had the impression PADI courses are relatively weak, compared to NAUI, GUE, and a few others." So even by your twisted sense of logic, my question was within the scope of yours." - walterWalter:
So maybe I'm missing your point. It looks as if you are using the post that you were unaware of to show that the words "and a few other" bring your question into scope even by my twisted sence of logic. And you are right in so much as I am back to trying to have a resonable discussion with you, and I am once again reminded of what a silly position that is.
Clearly, I get it. I must accept that any discussion that involves you will be had on this same basis. Maybe it's just a difference of the ethical standards that we apply to ourselves. Using part of my post is fine, using part of my sentence is not. That's the ethical standard that I apply to myself regardless of who I'm talking to. I find it unfortunate that you are unable or unwilling to strive for that same level. I would choose to believe though, that rather than a lack of willingness it is just a lack of awareness that amongst some people this is what is expected. Perhaps now that you know different, you will strive to do things differently. At least now if you don't, it will be obvious that it's because it's what you choosen to settle for.Walter:
mjatkins:
mojokelt
Guest
At the risk of extending this contentious issue I would just like to add that my experiences of PADI's QA process here in the UK/Ireland is that it is a joke.
They have decided that an instructor is fit to teach despite the following breaches of their guidelines:
OW signed off without any open water dives
OW signed off with two dives
AOW signed off after 1 dive
Money being taken for courses that were never delivered
Breaching local health and safety guidelines
Failure to teach dive tables correctly
...and these are the only ones that I know of personally. (Currently another instructor has put in a six-page report about his behaviour and the AOW diver has also lodged a formal complaint.)
The 'investigation' into this instructor has been ongoing since my initial complaint in July of last year. Despite reassurances from the PADI investigator that he will inform me when the investigation is over, I have heard very little about this matter - except when I get annoyed with things such as the instructor bragging that he has made a deal with PADI, for example. To get any info from PADI I have had to send numerous emails and practically make a nuisance of myself.
My personal take on the whole training agency issue is that since the individual instructors can be of variable quality (I work as a college lecturer and I know that even highly qualified people can be useless when it comes to teaching) that the agency can only truly show their true colours when dealing with those who break their guidelines and regulations. In this respect I have been very disappointed with PADI.
Does this mean that PADI training is no good? No. It does however, send out the message that you need to be very careful whom you approach for training because there can be no guarantee from PADI that your instructor is as competent as he should be.
They have decided that an instructor is fit to teach despite the following breaches of their guidelines:
OW signed off without any open water dives
OW signed off with two dives
AOW signed off after 1 dive
Money being taken for courses that were never delivered
Breaching local health and safety guidelines
Failure to teach dive tables correctly
...and these are the only ones that I know of personally. (Currently another instructor has put in a six-page report about his behaviour and the AOW diver has also lodged a formal complaint.)
The 'investigation' into this instructor has been ongoing since my initial complaint in July of last year. Despite reassurances from the PADI investigator that he will inform me when the investigation is over, I have heard very little about this matter - except when I get annoyed with things such as the instructor bragging that he has made a deal with PADI, for example. To get any info from PADI I have had to send numerous emails and practically make a nuisance of myself.
My personal take on the whole training agency issue is that since the individual instructors can be of variable quality (I work as a college lecturer and I know that even highly qualified people can be useless when it comes to teaching) that the agency can only truly show their true colours when dealing with those who break their guidelines and regulations. In this respect I have been very disappointed with PADI.
Does this mean that PADI training is no good? No. It does however, send out the message that you need to be very careful whom you approach for training because there can be no guarantee from PADI that your instructor is as competent as he should be.
I can not believe I just wasted time reading this thread. Two posters have gone way overboard on trying to "win".
What is the point in picking every single word with in a post and disecting it? Edit this edit that. You asked the question....no you asked the question. I said that....no you said that and she said this. Do you get it? You obviously don't get it. I get it...no you dont get it. Yes I do....no you dont.
What is the point in picking every single word with in a post and disecting it? Edit this edit that. You asked the question....no you asked the question. I said that....no you said that and she said this. Do you get it? You obviously don't get it. I get it...no you dont get it. Yes I do....no you dont.
OP
sytech
Contributor
Having started this "tread" several days ago the various "tributaries" taken, the "depth" of the discussions, the "bottom" line is that a lot of this proves to me that this business is quite "fishy" and literally a "house of cards". Excuse the aquatic metaphors but I believe they are appropriate.
*The affiliations between individual dive shops and Agencies seem to be very little more than a monetary relationship between the two entities with some pretense to abide by the rules and regs. of that particular agency, whatever those might be.
*The Agency curricula for any particular course seems to allow way too much disgression on the part of an Instructor so much so that unless one has it in writing from the Agency (ahem, like in a manual for that course authorized by that agency)
how the heck do you even know that the course is being taught according to the agency's already very "flexible" criteria? The fact is that you don't.
And I have to ask another question. Why do so many shops offer courses from competing Agencies? One would think that if a shop has an honest philosophical preference for the policies of any particular agency, that would be what they would teach. I'm sure though, that the economic realities and the marketing clout of a PADI for example requires that the dive shop owner is almost forced to offer a buffet of certifiying agencies' courses.
Bottom line for me on all this:
This is not unlike a Tupperware distributorship only with much more serious implications.
Caveat emptor and caveat emptor. Get everything in writing. Do ask to see that the manual the instructor is using (if he's even using one) to determine if it's even from the agency you think you're getting trained by. Better yet, make sure you get a student manual yourself. If it's in crayon, it's a bad sign.
Try to determine how hung over your instructor "might" be. I think ABC Scuba Cert. Agency allows more intoxication on weekends than on weekdays than other agencies allow but it's still at the Instructor's disgression.
Sorry for the sarcasm but it I can't help it!
Sy
but I believe they are appropriate.*The affiliations between individual dive shops and Agencies seem to be very little more than a monetary relationship between the two entities with some pretense to abide by the rules and regs. of that particular agency, whatever those might be.
*The Agency curricula for any particular course seems to allow way too much disgression on the part of an Instructor so much so that unless one has it in writing from the Agency (ahem, like in a manual for that course authorized by that agency)
how the heck do you even know that the course is being taught according to the agency's already very "flexible" criteria? The fact is that you don't.
And I have to ask another question. Why do so many shops offer courses from competing Agencies? One would think that if a shop has an honest philosophical preference for the policies of any particular agency, that would be what they would teach. I'm sure though, that the economic realities and the marketing clout of a PADI for example requires that the dive shop owner is almost forced to offer a buffet of certifiying agencies' courses.
Bottom line for me on all this:
This is not unlike a Tupperware distributorship only with much more serious implications.
Caveat emptor and caveat emptor. Get everything in writing. Do ask to see that the manual the instructor is using (if he's even using one) to determine if it's even from the agency you think you're getting trained by. Better yet, make sure you get a student manual yourself. If it's in crayon, it's a bad sign.
Try to determine how hung over your instructor "might" be. I think ABC Scuba Cert. Agency allows more intoxication on weekends than on weekdays than other agencies allow but it's still at the Instructor's disgression.
Sorry for the sarcasm but it I can't help it!
Sy
shellbackdiver1:
mjatkins:
Clearly, you never will get it, so get over it.
sytech:
Well, I can't speak for ALL shops... like everything else I think there are probably a whole range of reasons. I know the LDS I use is expanding their NAUI courses... and another LDS in the area is considering it... principally because there are people who are asking for NAUI courses.
One thing that often gets left out of these discussions is that not all students are sheep... some acutally have brains and the ability to make assessment and choices. If enough of them have grey cells firing at the same time... the LDS will generally move in whatever direction it needs to accomodate whatever thought comes forward.
... at least that's my take on the issue... debate *may* ensue...
sytech:
:14: :14: Yep... ya' said a bunch there! Most LDS ops are darned good folk... but business is business. People are different... courses standardized (pretty much). Ever find a "universal anything" that truely is? The course you take might work fine for you but pinch for me... Does this mean the course bad? Nope... means the fit isn't right... that's all.
The bottom line is... only you dive in your skin... so only you should be making the decisions about it. (Hopefully informed decisions...) You have a responsibility to reseach and learn until you feel you have enough information to make that decision...
... and, in the end... the love you take... is equal to... the love you make.
shellbackdiver1:
I just read your post regerding the argument that has been going on between Walter and myself. While I don't feel that my goal was to win, your point is well made and valid.
FYI, I have chosen to walk away from the discussion, and hopefully will be able to make better choices about what is worth fighting for in the future.
Thanks,
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