Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

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Karibelle:
That presumes that you don't think the skills' order as outlined in the PADI sessions are in a logical order. If you consider that within each module skills can be moved around, I think that they *are* logical.

What would you change, in order to make them more logical?

I have one example right here for ya, Darlin.

Session 1

7. Swim underwater with scuba equipment while maintaining control of both direction and depth......

Session 2

11. Adjust for proper weighting..........

Session 3

1. Independently establish neutral buoyancy under water........

The skill taught in pool session 2 (proper weighting) is one of the first skills a student should learn. The skill taught in pool session 3 (neutral buoyancy) should come right after weighting. Both are necessary before a student and accomplish the skill required in pool session 1 (swimming underwater on SCUBA while maintaining control of depth).

Look at your standards with an open, questioning mind.
 
Telling me what order I must present skills in is nonsense enough without telling me that I have to teach in a clearly stupid order. That borders on the criminally negligent.
 
mjatkins:
After all this if I have to be wrong about the use of the word edit, my head will explode! Is that what you want? Hmmm... Mr dictionary guy! Do you want that on your concience, my head exploded all over my desk. Well? Do ya?:wink:

HUMOR MODE = ON

:popcorn: :popcorn: Awww... I won't want yer' head to explode... that would be a bummer and I'd probably end up seein' yer face on stuff underwater, having a complex, needing to take more Agency classes to clear it... sheesh... :) :) :)

I'm thinkin' this might be a 'regionalism' perhaps... a 'rice wine to you'... "saki to me" thing... (for any old Laugh-In fans left out there). But... honestly... such 'cliping' being viewed in the context of 'editing' really is a new one to me... and I normally consider myself to reasonably articulate... huh... although I can see how, buy turning your head *just in the right way*... and squinting your left eye at just about sunset... yea... I can see how you could make it work.

:popcorn: :popcorn: But... well... the part of the world I come from still (realizing I'm running the risk of an exploding head)... wouldn't consider what Walter did to be 'editing' in that he was quoting an existing document... not expunging it. The citation was referanceable in its orginal context... and, ya' know... you really don't have any sign up that say, "This document must be quoted in its enitirey at all times." ... so Walter's cliping fits well within the conventional standards of 'fair play' on internet e-lists... :rofl3: :rofl3:

Anyway... it appears to be one of those unsolveable issues... I would have much prefered watching the *water contest* if you had accused Walter of something cool like "... wanton and willful misrepresentation by unethical maniputlation of the intended intellectual content of my internet chat-list post" rather than just "edited"... wow... really sounds namby-pamby to me... :rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:


HUMOR MODE = OFF

Thank you for playing... please deposit another 25 cents...

... and... DANG... if Walter ain't right again... I downloaded the DAN thing a week or so ago... and I don't see ANYTHING in there (I read the worlds as well as looking at the pretty pictures) that sez' anything about what agency had what share of the accidents... OR makes any representation as to what precentage of accidents their statistics represents... in fact... they're quite *up front* about this...

:popcorn: :popcorn:

... what next? Aliens????
 
tedtim:
Interesting. So, if a student achieves the minimum standards set out by NAUI, the instructor can deny them an OW certification based on a subjective set of additions? To me this invalidates the standards. Again, I do agree that the flexibility to teach information and skills in addition to the standards is good, I just can't see how each instructor is permitted to change them simply on their own. If the standards are indeed a minimum, when an instructor adds requirements the revision seems to me to become an absolute. A student can meet the minimum, but if they can't meet the added requirements, then they will not receive a certification.

I understand your points and concerns, some of which I had not considered before.
This MAY help:

Here are some quotes from the NAUI Code of Ethics, which every NAUI instructor is a signatory to when certified:

"..the instructor shall

*instruct objectively, without favoritism or granting special advantage or placing special requirements.........

*.....not engage in in any arbitrary discriminitory act or procedure.

* instruct in conformity with established association standards and policies so that all students are eligible to be certified by the Association upon satisfactory completion of the NAUI course."

I read this to indicate that the instructor may not arbitrarily make the course impossible to pass. The quotes above are part of the standards and procedures just as much as which skills to teach.
 
Walter:
Session 1 7. Swim underwater with scuba equipment while maintaining control of both direction and depth......

Session 2 11. Adjust for proper weighting..........

Session 3 1. Independently establish neutral buoyancy under water........

HUMOR MODE = ON

Hey Walter... first, let me appologize for 'editing' your post... very rude of me... hope you understand...

... Ummm... your reasoning makes sense to me... UNLESS you take the things you point out and look at em' this way...

First - ya' have the instructor dress the student and, after the milk and cookies, adjust their weighing and bouyancy FOR them so they can swim in the nice water, become enamored with with it and compulsively feel a necessit to go on to the 'hard stuff'...

Second - ya' then teach the student what a weight is and how if affects their ability to float... or not...

Third - ya' THEN let the student try... all on their own... what the instructor did for them in session 1.

That *would* put things in a logical sequence wouldn't it...

HUMOR MODE = off

I now return you all to this absolutely FACINATING discussion... :popcorn: :popcorn:
 
J.R.:
HUMOR MODE = ON

FACINATING :

[humor] Sounds painful, surely you meant FASCINATING? [/humor]

Sorry, my dad was an English teacher. :)
 
neil:
[humor] Sounds painful, surely you meant FASCINATING? [/humor]

Sorry, my dad was an English teacher. :)

:rofl3: :rofl3: ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
(bad... bad spell checker... no biscuit)... :rofl3: :rofl3:
 
neil:
I understand your points and concerns, some of which I had not considered before.
This MAY help:

Here are some quotes from the NAUI Code of Ethics, which every NAUI instructor is a signatory to when certified:

"..the instructor shall

*instruct objectively, without favoritism or granting special advantage or placing special requirements.........

*.....not engage in in any arbitrary discriminitory act or procedure.

* instruct in conformity with established association standards and policies so that all students are eligible to be certified by the Association upon satisfactory completion of the NAUI course."

I read this to indicate that the instructor may not arbitrarily make the course impossible to pass. The quotes above are part of the standards and procedures just as much as which skills to teach.
Thank you.
 
Walter:
Actually, you did and I see in a later post you've admitted you did and that this post was a mistake on your part. Thank you for going back and reading your previous post then having the integrity to admit to your mistakes.
Your welcome, I believe it's the appropriate thing to do.

Walter:
I didn't consider it editing, but I won't quibble over the term I wouldn't want your head to explode. When I said, "What editing," I had no idea to what you were referring. Now I know. As to the "editing" it was to show the relationship of my question to yours and to show to whom I was directing the question. Understand?
OK. The reason why I mentioned what appeared to be a "dumb act" when you said "what editing?" is because in post #51 you quote half my question. In post #66 I point out that you edited my question by stopping it in mid sentence, and I restate my question in it's entirety. In post #100 I again restate that you cut my question off in mid sentence. In post #143 I do a word for word comparison for you showing the full text of my question and compare it to the "edited" version that you quoted.

Perhaps my choice of words was a bit inappropriate. But after all that, to have you say "what editing?", it doesn't seem that far out of the realm of possibility that you probably know exactly what editing I'm talking about.



Walter:
I resent you saying I'm , "playing dumb." I resent the fact you are calling me "sneaky." I have not been sneaky and I have not been playing dumb. I've not been thinking good thoughts about your inability to understand, but I've kept those thought to myself. I think you've stepped over the line.

Again, perhaps my choice of words was somewhat inappropriate for a public forum.



Walter:
Don't be silly. I know you weren't been underhanded when you brought up NAUI even though Catherine's statement didn't mention NAUI. I was obviously being sarcastic when I asked if you were being underhanded. More than once you said I was underhanded when I asked you if PADI's text had a section about the panic cycle when I knew YMCA's text did, but didn't know if NAUI's did or not (I still don't know - does anyone?) and you asked specifically about NAUI. If I was being underhanded, then by the same logic you were as well when you dragged NAUI into the discussion. Of course you weren't being underhanded. You were curious and asked a question. Neither was I when I asked my question. I think we need to back off on the insults, we both want to avoid a meeting at Weehawken.
I have no way to know when you are being sarcastic, and must take you to mean what you say. To clarify again. I have said that the editing of someones statement in order to have it make your post seem relevent to it is underhanded. Your question, and your point about what the YMCA includes in it's course is fine. I believe I have been extreemely clear that I believe it is underhanded to edit my question in order to accomodate your question, not the question itself. As you stated above "As to the "editing" it was to show the relationship of my question to yours". I understand that, and have conteded all along that if you need to edit it in order to show the relationship, the relationship is not very strong.

And it would appear that we are now in agreement that Catherine did in fact bring up NAUI, and I did not "drag NAUI into the disscusion". So now the question would seem to be weather or not it was underhanded of me to ask her to discuss the PADI and NAUI manual specificly while quoting her #42 post in which she says "The coursework is not rigorous, the books have very little substantive material, I believe." Since her post was a responce to my original post, which intern was a direct responce to her post #20 where she mentions NAUI by name, as well as talks about the inadequecy of the PADI manual, I don't feel this is an unfair request, or should be considered underhanded. On the contrary, it would appear to be nothing more than the natural progresion of the conversation. The fact that you are were unaware of the #20 post when both I and the person whom I was addressing were, does not constitute "streching it" on my part.

I asked her specificly about NAUI as I have some (all be it limited) knowledge of NAUI, and am under the impression that the manuals are not dramaticly different. (I conceed that there are some differences) GUE I have absolutely no knowledge of, so didn't want to debate something I have no idea about.

Walter:
Sorry, I was wrong, you were being underhanded. You just waited to do so. In post 50, you quote Catherine's post 42 and ask her to tell you something about the NAUI text. When you made a big deal about my question to you that did not have anything to do with NAUI, I mentioned the same applied to your question to Catherine when you brought NAUI into the discussion. Now you show where she did mention NAUI 20 posts earlier. Geeze, that's really stretching it. OK, let's stretch it back tp post 22, that quote was, "but I have had the impression PADI courses are relatively weak, compared to NAUI, GUE, and a few others." So even by your twisted sense of logic, my question was within the scope of yours.
The fact that my question to Catherine may have been more limited in scope than her original statement, I will conceed. I believe I have addressed (above) my reason for doing this. But I disagree that your rescent revelation that this previous post exists somehow makes your question any more relevent to the scope of the question that I asked. I believe it will be hard for you to contend that the wider scope of her original statement is what made you feel your question was relevent, as you apparently did not not know of it's existance. So I again contend that based on the question you were aware of, your question was nothing more than a new direction with very limited relevence to mine. Thus as I have contended all along, you felt the need to edit my question to make it seem more relevent.

That's all. I generally try to be carefull of the point of the questions that I ask, and don't like someone changing my words and then posting them as mine. I don't see that as being acceptable in any forum.

Thanks
 
mjatkins:
But I disagree that your rescent revelation that this previous post exists somehow makes your question any more relevent to the scope of the question that I asked.

That is not nor has it ever been my contention. It just shows the silliness of your position.


mjatkins:
Thus as I have contended all along, you felt the need to edit my question to make it seem more relevent.

I quoted the part of your post to which my question applied. You don't like that. I understand, but I don't care. Get over it.

I wasn't aware you were from Texas.
 
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