Overfilling and life expectancy. (LP Tanks)

[nitroxfox]

I want you all to know that I would prefer to blend via continuous flow. However, it is not a viable means for me as OSHA and the DOT are not on the same page and I can't find a compressor manufacturer who will give me a compliance letter.. As they are the regulatory authorities and impose fines and jail time, I will do what they tell me I am REQUIRED and MANDATED to do. Please do not confuse this with agreement. I make no claim to be an engineer, just a guy with reading comprehension!

I also wish that the DOT and OSHA both told me I did not need to clean cylinders if they were less than 40%! It would make my life a lot easier. Don't get mad at me, direct that at the fellows at the training agencies who need to avail themselves of the information and Laws. Before letting us all believe that we were doing things correctly and in good faith, they should have verified their information and made sure the training standards complied with Federal Law, in my opinion.

The Dahlai Lama says to know the law so you can be aware of the ones you are breaking.!

If any of you have questions, I hope you will ask the regulatory authorities how you proceed. I again reiterate that I may not agree with all of the regulations, but they do exist and you should become aware of them. When there are differing opinions and positions, I tend to ask those who will be giving me a ticket or bill how I should proceed. Please check the veracity of the information for yourself and do what soothes YOUR soul. I am not here to judge and tell others how to proceed, just to cover my own ass.!

I am truly sorry to peel that onion and hope it doesn't effect anyone's business negatively.

Please read OSHA 69:7351-7366 which is the final ruling regarding recreational scuba.
We all get an exemption from the MANDATORY decompression chamber requirement being onsite and within 5 minutes of the dive if we comply with 4 conditions:
1, No decompression dives
2, Max PO2 of 1.4
3, Nitrogen and Oxygen are the only gases in the mix and it is at a max of 40%
4, Your max depth is 130FSW.

Again, do not confuse my knowledge of the regulations with acceptance and agreement. Please read for yourself and do what you deem to be right. I am not here to police the dive industry! I am just sharing information. If you disagree with the Federal Government, please direct your disgust at them.

Here's the Link:
Commercial Diving Operations - 69:7351-7366

I want to be sure all of you know that I truly do not want to negatively impact your business.

 

[Wookie]

Luckily, commercial diving operations only apply to the diver conducting the operation and not the vessel taking them diving. If the diver isn't getting paid, and in fact is paying to dive, the operation is exempt from OSHA requirements. And I do have that opinion in writing from OSHA and the Coast Guard.

 

[nitroxfox]

VooDooGasMan,

My personal opinion would be to clean you cylinders for O2 service at 23.5%. PP filling works. Make sure you follow prescribed fill rates and keep your stuff clean. Open valves slowly and fill slowly. Use proper lubricants and components. Again, do what you want, but if it was me, I would abide by the law and follow manufacturer recommendations.

Your life, however, is your own and do with it what you will. I would encourage you to be safe both legally, professionally, and morally.

 

[nitroxfox]

Wookie,

Thanks for the information. Would you be kind enough to share the response? It would be part of the public record and you should have either a PDF or an interpretation #. I n order for you to have received a written response, you would have had to send a written inquiry. The CG tells me differently. If I receive payment for a charter, I am a commercial operation. That includes gas. Per OSHA they tell me I would fall under the liveboating and scuba diving regulations. I would be exempt form the Mandatory decompression chamber requirement if I followed all conditions mandated in 69:7351-73-66. I would surely like to point out their mistake and have everyone on the same page.

Commercial Diving Operations - 69:7351-7366

Liveboating. - 1910.427

SCUBA diving. - 1910.424

 

[Wookie]

It will have to wait until I return to the boat. Yes, I am a commercial operation, but my divers are not commercial divers. If they were commercial divers, we would surely be subject to OSHA, and in fact, when we undertake commercial diving operations (divers are paid), we are. If you read the first word in every one of the references you cite, the key word and tricky phrase is "employers". My divers are not "employees", they are "customers", or, as I like to refer to them, "guests".

 

[redacted]

An important distinction, as I read these, is that Commercial Diving Operations - 69:7351-7366 applies to recreational dive training and the conduct of guided dives where an employee is in the water with the students or divers. I don't believe either of those conditions generally apply with the Spree.

 

[nitroxfox]

Proposed § 1910.401(a)(3) specified that this amendment would apply only to recreational diving instructors and diving guides who are engaged solely in recreational diving instruction and dive-guiding operations. Accordingly, OSHA also proposed to add the following definitions for "recreational diving instruction" and "dive-guiding operations" to § 1910.402 of the CDO standards:

"Recreational diving instruction" means the training of diving students in the use of recreational diving procedures and the safe operation of diving equipment, including open-circuit, semi-closed-circuit,
or closed-circuit SCUBA during dives.

Taken directly from the text.

"Dive-guiding operations" means the leading of groups of trained sports divers, who use open-circuit, semi-closed-circuit, or closed-circuit SCUBA, to local undersea diving locations for recreational purposes.

I would be engaged in dive guide operations when leading groups of trained sport divers to locations for recreational purposes. That is pretty much the definition of a charter! It would be reasonable to infer that if one needs to perform to a certain standard of care for one's employees, the same standard would apply to people and customers in your care. The UCC (uniform code of conduct) applies to all engaged in business. I can't even rent someone an apartment, car , or bicycle if I do not meet certain conditions, let alone take them diving. If one wishes to engage in business, one has a responsibility to the other party. I would seriously recommend you speak with an attorney and ask them the same question. " If I have to perform to a certain standard of care for my employees, do I need to apply that same standard to people paying me and my employees for the same service"? As they are paying you instead of you paying them is it your position that you have no responsibility to provide a certain standard of care mandated by law?

 

[nitroxfox]

Trust me fellas,
I am with you guys on this. I am not happy about what the directors at OSHA and the DOT tell me. I am of the personal opinion that diving underwater in an environment in which man was not meant to live can be and is at times a dangerous endeavor. There is no way to eliminate the risk associated with this activity that we all love. Accidents are very infrequent and unfortunately do happen no matter what precautions we take. When they happen, it is my experience that a lot of finger pointing and Monday morning quarterbacking goes on. People get sued and lose all they have worked for. We unfortunately live in a very litigious society in America. Just turn on the TV and see all the bloodsuckers soliciting!!
Make sure your waivers are signed, i's dotted ant t's crossed.!!
Know what you are getting into and take appropriate precautions.
Even if someone has a heart attack through no fault of you own, you do run the risk of a lawsuit. You will still have to defend yourself. That is unfortunately the world in which we live.

 

[redacted]

Proposed § 1910.401(a)(3) specified that this amendment would apply only to recreational diving instructors and diving guides who are engaged solely in recreational diving instruction and dive-guiding operations. Accordingly, OSHA also proposed to add the following definitions for "recreational diving instruction" and "dive-guiding operations" to § 1910.402 of the CDO standards:

"Recreational diving instruction" means the training of diving students in the use of recreational diving procedures and the safe operation of diving equipment, including open-circuit, semi-closed-circuit,
or closed-circuit SCUBA during dives.

Taken directly from the text.

"Dive-guiding operations" means the leading of groups of trained sports divers, who use open-circuit, semi-closed-circuit, or closed-circuit SCUBA, to local undersea diving locations for recreational purposes.

I would be engaged in dive guide operations when leading groups of trained sport divers to locations for recreational purposes. That is pretty much the definition of a charter! It would be reasonable to infer that if one needs to perform to a certain standard of care for one's employees, the same standard would apply to people and customers in your care. The UCC (uniform code of conduct) applies to all engaged in business. I can't even rent someone an apartment, car , or bicycle if I do not meet certain conditions, let alone take them diving. If one wishes to engage in business, one has a responsibility to the other party. I would seriously recommend you speak with an attorney and ask them the same question. " If I have to perform to a certain standard of care for my employees, do I need to apply that same standard to people paying me and my employees for the same service"? As they are paying you instead of you paying them is it your position that you have no responsibility to provide a certain standard of care mandated by law?

Yes, it does require some interpretation of what is meant by "...the leading of groups...."; and I can see how one might argue your interpretation of that quote.

The next paragraph reads: "To further limit application of the amendment, proposed § 1910.401(a)(3) required employers to ensure that the instructors and guides conduct these dives within the no-decompression limits, and that they use a nitrox breathing-gas mixture consisting of a high percentage of O₂ (more than 22% by volume) mixed with nitrogen and supplied by an open-circuit, semi-closed-circuit, or closed-circuit SCUBA. Under this proposed requirement, employers also would have to comply with the requirements specified in new Appendix C of subpart T."

To me, the requirement that the instructors and guides..."use a nitrox breathing-gas mix..." makes it fairly clear they are referring to the guides being in the water guiding the divers. So if you are putting guides in the water with your divers then the requirements may apply. If not, then it would not appear to apply. I'm pretty sure the Spree does not employ any dive guides.

 

[nitroxfox]

From the DOT 49CFR171 regarding exclusions to the DOT standard:

(4) Rail and motor vehicle movements
of a hazardous material exclusively
within a contiguous facility
boundary where public access is restricted,
except to the extent that the
movement is on or crosses a public
road or is on track that is part of the
general railroad system of transportation,
unless access to the public road
is restricted by signals, lights, gates,
or similar controls.

If you cross a public road or waterway, DOT rules apply.

If you read the whole exemption for Recreational Scuba AWAP, one needs not have a decompression chamber on site within 5 minutes of the dive if 4 conditions are met:
1,No decompression diving
2, 130 FSW max depth
3, max PO2 of 1.4
4, one uses nitrox, N2 + O2 up to 40%

The only difference OSHA makes between commercial and recreational diving is that if ALL 4 of the above conditions are met, one can have a decompression chamber within 4 hours of the dive instead of onsite within 5 minutes. When they refer to a nitrox breathing gas, OSHA is referring to a mixture of Nitrogen and Oxygen.
All I am saying is that this is a slippery slope and one should err on the side of caution. However, do whatever you are comfortable with. As I said in the previous post, there is no way to 100% eliminate the risk associated with scuba diving.

I wish you all good luck, no accidents , and millions of dollars in profit.

Thanks for all the insight.