Overfilling and life expectancy. (LP Tanks)

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Quote from KSW "I can guess that there is no answer other than the US is more cautious than overseas"

I took that to be a reference to the similar looking tanks (dimensions) with quite different pressure ratings that you and others have explained also differ from a materials standpoint that help explain the different ratings. Nothing about hydro requirements.

I have wondered what the hydro requirements in popular overseas dive destination. I looked in Caribbean destinations a few time and don't think I have seen anything except a born on date.
 
The DOT specs for 3AA and exemption tanks are available online. I know it's fun to have an argument without using any actual facts, but sometimes you need to actually know what you're talking about.

Facts about DOT tanks:
HP (E/SP) tanks have a higher strength steel than LP (3AA) tanks.
3AA tanks have a long history and significant data on cycle life.
Wall thickness is calculated based on an allowable stress at test (hydro) pressure.
Service pressure is based on derating of test pressure.
Burst pressure is much greater than test pressure. This is easily calculated using the allowables in the various specs.

Using the minimum allowables and wall thicknesses as stated in the 3AA spec, I did my own fatigue analysis. As a result, I fill both my HP and LP tanks to 3500 (cold), because that's where the booster cuts off. I will never approach 10% of the predicted fatigue life.
 
KWS,

I suggest you check the DOT website for their numerous interpretations all requiring cylinder cleaning at 23.5%O2 if you want to transport the cylinder in the USA.
Here is a link:

PHMSA - Interpretations by Date - Interpretation #11-0175


Also, if you want to use a continuous flow system with an oil filled compressor, you are required to get a letter from the compressor manufacturer stating that the compressor is safe to use with 100% O2. I know of no manufacturer who will give such a letter.
From OSHA:
d) Using a compressor. This proposed condition specified that when employers produce nitrox breathing-gas mixtures, and before using a compressor in which the gas pressure in any system component exceeds 125 psi, they must ensure that: (i) Compressor manufacturers certify in writing that the compressor is suitable for mixing high-pressure air with the highest O2 fraction used in the nitrox breathing- gas mixture; (ii) compressors are oil-less or oil-free and rated for O2 service, unless the employer complies with the requirements of condition (e) below; and (iii) compressors meet the requirements specified in paragraphs (i)(1) and (i)(2) of § 1910.430 whenever the highest O2 fraction used in the mixing process exceeds 40% by volume. In the proposal, OSHA stated that the purpose of these proposed requirements was to prevent O2-accelerated explosions during the mixing process, the risk of which increases when gas pressure in a system component exceeds 125 psi.

As the highest O2 fraction used in the mixing process is pure O2 diluted then to 32-36% and then passed through the compressor, one must meet the requirements of (i)1 and (i)2 of 1910.430.

OSHA revised paragraph (i) of this condition to indicate that the requirement specified in this paragraph is the responsibility of the compressor manufacturer, not the employer, but is adopting paragraph (ii) in the final rule as proposed. These provisions will provide assurance that a compressor's components cannot serve as an ignition source for an O2-accelerated explosion.

As OSHA noted in the proposal, oil-based lubricants used in compressors contain hydrocarbons that can ignite in the presence of an enriched O2 environment during the mixing process; such ignition may cause an explosion that injures and kills employees. To prevent the injuries and death that could result from such explosions, the proposed requirements were designed to ensure that the high-pressure O2 being pumped through the compressor is free of combustible hydrocarbons. Therefore, paragraph (i) of the proposed condition specified a requirement that employers use hydrocarbon-free air when mixing nitrox breathing gases. By obtaining the manufacturer's written certification that the compressor is suitable for this purpose, as required by paragraph (ii), the employer knows that system components exposed to high O2 will be safe for mixing high- pressure air with the highest O2 fraction used in the nitrox breathing-gas mixture. OSHA revised this provision slightly to indicate that providing documentation of a compressor's suitability is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the employer.

The president of Machine Design & Fabrication, Inc., Mr. Tom Grubb, submitted comments regarding compressors that use synthetic lubricants (Ex. 5-3). After noting that most compressors used for mixing breathing gases use synthetic lubricants (usually diester or triester based), Mr. Grubb argued that the final rule should treat these compressors in the same fashion as oil-less or oil-free compressors. In doing so, he asserted that compressors that use synthetic lubricants have flashpoints and autoignition temperatures that are higher than the operating temperatures of the compressors, thereby eliminating the risk of hydrocarbon contamination of the breathing gas. He concludes that these compressors are as safe as oil-less and oil-free compressors when operated according to the manufacturers' specifications regarding maximum temperature, cooling, ventilation, and maintenance.

Mr. Grubb raises an issue regarding the safety of synthetic lubricants that OSHA did not address in the proposal. As the regulated community has not had an opportunity to comment on this issue, the Agency is not in a position at this time to act on Mr. Grubb's recommendations. Therefore, for the purposes of the alternative procedures permitted by this final rule, employers who operate compressors that use synthetic lubricants are to treat these compressors in the same fashion as oil-lubricated compressors.

In addition, Mr. Grubb noted the importance of using compressor systems according to the manufacturers' specifications. Under the certification requirements in proposed conditions (d)(ii), (e)(ii), and (e)(iv), manufacturers are responsible for providing the user with information on how to use their equipment safely and appropriately. Therefore, the Agency is adding the phrase "when operated in accordance with the manufacturer's operating and maintenance specifications" to these provisions.

(f) Compliance with other OSHA standards. Under this proposed condition, employers must ensure that SCUBA equipment in which either nitrox breathing-gas mixtures or pure O2 is under high pressure (i.e., exceeding 125 psi) complies with the requirements of paragraphs (i)(1) and (i)(2) of § 1910.430. OSHA is including this condition in the final standard as proposed because it ensures that this equipment is free of ignition sources that could cause an O2-accelerated explosion. As noted above in the discussion of Condition 3(d)(iii), the Agency believes that paragraphs (i)(1) and (i)(2) of § 1910.430 reduce this risk by requiring employers to use diving equipment designed for O2 service and to clean the equipment of flammable materials before such use.

Additionally,

(e) Oil-lubricated compressors. Before the employer produces nitrox breathing-gas mixtures using an oil-lubricated compressor to mix high-pressure air with O2, and regardless of the gas pressure in any system component, this proposed condition would require employers to: (i) Use only uncontaminated air (i.e., air containing no hydrocarbon particulates) for the nitrox breathing-gas mixture; (ii) have the compressor manufacturer certify in writing that the compressor is suitable for mixing the high-pressure air with the highest O2 fraction used in the nitrox breathing-gas mixture; (iii) filter the high-pressure air to produce O2-compatible air; (iv) have the filter-system manufacturer certify in writing that the filter system used for this purpose is suitable for producing O2-compatible air; and (v) continuously monitor the air downstream from the filter for hydrocarbon contamination.

I am not about all things OSHA, I assure you. MY point is to make yourself aware of Federal Regulations and the penalties if you plan to disregard them. From a litigation standpoint, it is always advisable to follow the Law. If you have a business and are found to be breaking the law, I wish you luck with your insurance policy covering the claim. Having had this conversation with my insurer, I was told "for my policy to be in effect it is understood that I would be abiding by all local, state, and federal laws and regulations."

Fortunately, accidents are few and far between. However, when they occur it is an unpleasant experience being in court, be it civil or criminal as a defendant. Most training agencies will have a little caveat in the S&Ps something to the effect of them saying that some of the standards may fall outside of OSHA and Federal regulations and they do not condone anything outside of workplace safety regulations or Federal regulations.

I encourage you all to make yourselves aware of the Federal requirements as well as all local regulations if you are running a dive business. Bear in mind, the regulations are not the same for the USA, Britain, EU, Australia, Asia, The Islands, etc.... If you want to speed , do it, but do it knowing that you can get in trouble. Also, try not to cause injury to yourself or others.

Good luck and read up.
 
Myth #1 - a guy with a compresor knows more than the engineers who established the standard for the cylinder.

Love it.

Since a plus rated tank is already 10% over rated,doesnt that kind of blow away your theory?

And with absurd statment like this, this guy is defenitely not an engineer.
 
Nitrofox,

you are bring up very valid information. Over the years, most talk about the DOT and completely ignore OSHA. If and when an issue arises, as a business owner, you can count on OSHA to be very aggressive.
 
Nitrofox,

you are bring up very valid information. Over the years, most talk about the DOT and completely ignore OSHA. If and when an issue arises, as a business owner, you can count on OSHA to be very aggressive.

I don't believe either DOT or OSHA regs apply directly to the consumer. I believe they apply to (commercial) transporters and business.

DOT: PHMSA is responsible for regulating and ensuring the safe and secure movement of hazardous materials to industry and consumers by all modes of transportation, including pipelines.

OSHA:
Welcome to OSHA's Law and Regulations page. This page contains links to all current OSHA standards, provides information on the rulemaking process used to develop workplace health and safety standards, and includes links to all Federal Register notices that are currently open for comment. This page also provides links to the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (OSH Act) and other relevant laws. Finally, this page includes resources to explore the Federal Register, the Code of Federal Regulations, and RegInfo.gov the federal government's public portal for all agency regulatory information.
Under the OSH Act, employers are responsible for providing a safe and healthful workplace. OSHA's mission is to assure safe and healthful workplaces by setting and enforcing standards, and by providing training, outreach, education and assistance. Employers must comply with all applicable OSHA standards. Employers must also comply with the General Duty Clause of the OSH Act, which requires employers to keep their workplace free of serious recognized hazards.
 
I don't believe either DOT or OSHA regs apply directly to the consumer. I believe they apply to (commercial) transporters and business.

Almost correct. Private individuals don't have to follow DOT or OSHA rules. But if you are transporting 1,000 pounds or more of compressed gas cylinders on public roads then you are considered by default to fall under the rules of commercial transporters even if you are not engaging in commercial activity, and therefore are bound by DOT rules.
 
Awap you are correct. If you are filling your own cylinders nobody cares what you are doing (except maybe if you live in an area with CCRs.). And like Doc said, once on the road you might fall under DOT.

However for a cylinder to be sold or filled commercially DOT and OSHA come into play. Scuba shops tend to make up their own rules when it comes cylinders and regulators. Just the other day one shop told me it was illegal to sell me some o-rings for a quick disconnect. I just smiled as he put them in my hand and told me "no charge." Maybe his insurance prohibits him from selling them but it ain't illegal. Scuba shops have been doing it for years.

Then we get folks like KWS, who by their logic are apt to say that a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers. Hopefully, his last words will not be "here hold my beer and watch this".
 
Nitroxfox Not sure I read totally corectly but If you PP blend your good to go, no o2 going through compressor.

Doc, jeff is learning and has probably only dive shop knowledge given in this area, that is why he post, and a good thread as the other is also, good info coming out.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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