OOA question. Who is teaching to give your main unit?

[Standingbear56]

To the OP - You are certainly free to donate a long hose octo and keep the primary in your mouth. It is a perferctly acceptable technique, and one that is still taught. However, if someone is going to grab your primary out of your mouth, generally it will not be your dive buddy, but some other diver. From your history, you are really a fairly new diver, and probably never experienced this. Please consider this - a diver in total panic and in fear of loss of their life becomes extremely powerful, almost to the point of appearing super human. This is a documented medical fact. Small women have literally tossed crashed cars OFF of their trapped children. Again, this is fact, not fiction. If you want the exact physiological events that can cause this, maybe TS & M would be willing to explain it to you, as she has a much higher level of medical training than I will probably ever have. However getting back to what I was saying. If a diver is this far gone in panic, there is probably very little you with or without your knife will be able to do to stop them from getting your primary. This is the type of situation where an officer can empty a 9mm clip into someone, and they still keep coming. Again, this is proven. This is all assuming that they just don't take it from behind. There are also other types of divers who could take your primary and not have to be in a total panic. They come under the generalized heading of "Combat Swimmers" Pulling a knife on one of these gentleman is generally NOT a good career move. In all it is better to at least be prepared to "donate your primary" if the situation warrants it, and leave your knife for more important stuff, like fishing line. Oh, and one other thing - as long as you are a human being, you can be brought to panic. No one is immune to this, regardless of training or experience. Everyone can panic, especially if they feel they are going to die.
Take care,
George

 

[ligersandtions]

Wow, this thread really blew up in a short amount of time. I don't have a lot to add, but I will add this. In my open water course, they taught to donate the octo. It was addressed that a panicked diver will probably grab for whatever they see first, which is most likely to be the one you are breathing from. I also orginally bought a BC with an AirII, and was told that I needed to donate the primary....this made sense from the start anyways, so I had no problem with it.

After I finished my OW and AOW courses, I was not satisified with what I had not learned (and had to learn by reading SB and other diving sources) or my "advanced" level of diving. I started reading more about tech diving, and began to move in that direction, although being a technical diver is a goal for the future (something I will not try until I am adequately trained, and confident and competent enough to know how to deal with what's thrown at me). I now dive with a bp/w and long hose set-up. My back-up reg sits in my necklace directly below my chin, so I know where it is at all times. I will donate the primary, and if unsuspectingly it's ripped out of my mouth, I don't care cause it will save your ass, and I will switch to my back-up (that I know exactly where is).

And for the record, I test my back-up reg on every single dive I do. As I'm donning fins in the surf zone, I put it in my mouth and breathe off it as needed. When I'm at depth, I switch over for a few breaths to make sure that I'd be comfortable breathing off it at the deepest point in the dive. Most dives, my buddy (assuiming it's my regular buddy) and I do air sharing drills.

It's better to prepare for and expect the worst, than to plan for the best and have something go terribly awry. So, to the OP, I would suggest practicing handing off your octo, as well as handing off your primary. Or even allowing your wife to rip the primary from your mouth....make sure you can deal with it and you will hold up your "I don't panic" mantra...

 

[ianr33]

"So you refused to give air to a drowning diver and stabbed him instead ?............................"

That would go down well in court!

 

[Blackwood]

"So you refused to give air to a drowning diver and stabbed him instead ?............................"

That would go down well in court!

By attacking his own client's competence ("unlike most divers, my client definitely would have died if forced to remove a reg for a few seconds"), a good lawyer could probably argue self defense.

 

[Nemrod]

There's no disagreement, the donor breathes from the inflator unit, the receiver gets the primary.

R

At least you agree with yourself.

To the OP, if you have not figured it out by now, the majority of people on this board fall in that small percentage group and are not representative of the vast majority of divers. Refer to my earlier post if you don't recall now 12 pages later.

N

 

[Nemrod]

I call bull****. No way in hell that an instructor taught you to use your knife on somebody to keep them from stealing your primary regulator.

No, probably not but he is certainly inventive.

N

 

[DivingPrincessE]

By attacking his own client's competence ("unlike most divers, my client definitely would have died if forced to remove a reg for a few seconds"), a good lawyer could probably argue self defense.

I seriously doubt that. He might be able to make the argument to get himself out of manslaughter (again, I say might) but it would be a slam dunk for reckless endangerment. All the prosecution would have to do is have an instructor testify as to what they are taught to do in OOA situations, (I still have my doubts about his instructor telling him to use his knife to defend his primary reg). After they have multiple NAUI instructors and divers testify to establish what a "reasonable person" would do, all the prosecutor would have to do seal the deal would be to have this thread read into evidence.

 

[Puffer Fish]

When I was teaching in panama, after our last checkout dive, if anyone was interested in how to deal with panic, I would take all the volunteers on a mud dive. Neat place... you sink down in clear water untill you slowly sink into the mud (maybe 10 ft of it)..as soon as you try to move.. zero vis.. feels like being stuck in pudding. You kick, and don't move... in fact it is hard to move your legs... cannot see something pressed against your mask. I found it by accident.. and it freaked me out. Never saw anyone no panic in some form there.

Note: Only way to get out is to use buoyancy, but when you come out.. you tend to shoot to the surface.

I would get behind the person and hold onto their tank strap... and make sure I did not get within arms reach at the surface. One time a small young lady, maybe 100 lbs, managed to grab me.. she left finger bruises in my arm for several months..

To the OP - You are certainly free to donate a long hose octo and keep the primary in your mouth. It is a perferctly acceptable technique, and one that is still taught. However, if someone is going to grab your primary out of your mouth, generally it will not be your dive buddy, but some other diver. From your history, you are really a fairly new diver, and probably never experienced this. Please consider this - a diver in total panic and in fear of loss of their life becomes extremely powerful, almost to the point of appearing super human. This is a documented medical fact. Small women have literally tossed crashed cars OFF of their trapped children. Again, this is fact, not fiction. If you want the exact physiological events that can cause this, maybe TS & M would be willing to explain it to you, as she has a much higher level of medical training than I will probably ever have. However getting back to what I was saying. If a diver is this far gone in panic, there is probably very little you with or without your knife will be able to do to stop them from getting your primary. This is the type of situation where an officer can empty a 9mm clip into someone, and they still keep coming. Again, this is proven. This is all assuming that they just don't take it from behind. There are also other types of divers who could take your primary and not have to be in a total panic. They come under the generalized heading of "Combat Swimmers" Pulling a knife on one of these gentleman is generally NOT a good career move. In all it is better to at least be prepared to "donate your primary" if the situation warrants it, and leave your knife for more important stuff, like fishing line. Oh, and one other thing - as long as you are a human being, you can be brought to panic. No one is immune to this, regardless of training or experience. Everyone can panic, especially if they feel they are going to die.
Take care,
George

 

[D_B]

Perhaps I am just meaner than you? I know CPR but know with 100% certainty that I would not use it on anyone other than my wife or kids.. Can you say the same? Doubtful. You have something in you that makes you want to help. I do not have that in my character at all. You may find that a flaw. I do not feel the same. Either way. It matters not to me.

so ... that is not a flaw? ... even if someone was around that could have performed CPR on .. your wife? your kids?? ... if a car wreck, plane crash, whatever accident happend that involved them and they did not because they feel just like you, .. you would be OK with that ????

... sorry, but I think Baby Duck is right

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Originally Posted by psychocabbage
What is it they say about people who assume?
hahah
Am I comfortable OOA in the water? Ya.. Enough that I can say I just dont panic.. But the scenario isnt about me going OOA, its someone else failing at their diving.

No, it doesn't matter what happened to cause the OOA, just how it resolves. Part of good diving skills is being able to handle this situation.




Odds of anyone overpowering me in any situation are highly unlikely... Now on to the OOA scenario.. Part of my training was how to maintain the control of my main reg..
And to understand that my knife was a tool used to keep people from stealing my reg...
I would much rather have 1 person float than 2..

Are you serious? What is wrong with you? I would love to know the name of your instructor and shop. Rambo? This is so wrong to teach or for you to have gleaned. You are not carrying a knife for dueling. For God's sake, let them have your reg. You have air. Go on your octo. Situation done. Anyone who teaches you to knife someone so you can keep your main reg is dangerous, and anyone who buys into it, isn't any better.



Does my octo work? Ya. How sure am I? I am the one that maintains all our gear. I actually was breathing off of it yesterday.. My octo is also tethered to my BC when I dive so I dont go dragging it through silt or sand..

My octo and my main unit are tested above before we ever go diving. Why? We were trained and understand that our life support equipment is vital to our lives..

Sure some people are just. well stupid.. They need to learn how to do it right or just quit..

Yes some people are.

As for my attitude, its spot on.. IMO I am way more important than you. I always will be. My first thought if someone is OOA isnt compassionate... I really dont care if that upsets you.. My first thought is this person needs to quit diving. I am 100% certain given a crisis situation, those that understand the value of their own lives are the ones that will come out ahead. My wife and kids are the benefactors of my thinking.

This has nothing to do with personal sacrifice. This has to do with appropriate problem solving underwater. You seem to be looking for a fight down there.

Some people dont need to have compassion.. and trust me, I wont be going for YOUR air.. I only dive with my wife and dont ever see that changing.. I also know enough to have earned my AOW from NAUI and I dont freak out in the deep dark abyss..

So, what happens if she panics and goes for your main. Does she know this philosophy of yours?

I dont think I could ever go with these long hose configs. I like the whole minimalistic approach.





If resorts taught people better I am sure I wouldnt feel the way I do.. but in short diving period of 60 logged dives I have already seen a few messups.. from OOA, to someone getting bent.. all PADI divers.. Even have seen "advanced" divers go OOA, and get on the wrong boat at the Spiegel Grove. Again, some people dont need to be diving.. You dont do a deep dive and not watch your air or bottom time.

So, at the end of the day, you should look into a rescue course, NOT by the idiot who you say taught you to get into a knife fight over your primary. It will really help with many issues you seem to have and it is a great course. Good luck.