OOA Buddy starts to drag you up by your octo - What would you do?

[Ice9]

Great visualization!

While this violates the scenario posed originally, why did the buddy OOA occur? If your buddy isn't checking the SPG, ask for his/her pressure. Ounce of prevention...

I 100% agree. But, sometimes ya just never know, especially if it was an insta-buddy or someone else in the water that you've never met before...

Assuming I had the air, 5 minutes at 60 feet and 15-20 minutes at 20 feet for a rapid ascent from 100+ feet. There should be a hang tank at 15-20 feet. Inform the DM you're performing an in-water omitted deco stop procedure before submerging

Is this reasonably safe? In OW we were always taught never to go back down. Of course, I guess theres exceptions to every rule, but I'm not qualified enough to know them

 

[darkpup]

I'm not saying that this actually happened. I'm just posing a hypothetical situation in order to get opinions. Personally, I tend to not want to take that express elevator, and my intent was to find out what others thought about the situation.

Right now, if I were actually in that situation, I don't know what I'd do or how I'd handle it. I have to think that although I'd choose not to take the express elevator if possible, I'd at least surface as quickly as I safely could - faster than 30 fpm I'm betting...

As far as what to do at the surface, I think that goes beyond the scope of the original post. I've never taken a rescue class, so I'm not really even remotely qualified to comment. I guess I'd try and calm them down and try to figure out if he was injured. :ne_nau:

No one wants to ride a polaris missile to the surface, but when you look at the risks associated with a fast ascent vs. leaving your buddy alone in an emergency situation, what's worse?

I mean think for a second. With all the people on SB, how many DCS hits have you heard of? How many people have died from a DCS hit?

Now think about those Accident / Incident reports where buddies become separated. How many people have died after losing their buddy?

Now think of the things you can do to reduce the risks of a fast ascent or an emergency that may result in one. You could check your buddies gas supply from time to time to keep track of things. You could use Nitrox to reduce the Nitrogen loading. You could analyze the risk associated with doing a deep dive with a complete stranger, and decide if the risks are acceptable or not. You could spend some time going over your buddies gear to familiarize yourself with how it works, or even practice an OOA situation at the beginning of the dive to build confidence. You could request that the first dive with this complete stranger be an easy / shallower dive, rather than jumping into a deep one right out of the gate. You could call the dive at any time if your buddy is following the "same ocean, same day" policy, and if you're diving with a DM, you could get them involved if your buddy is doing their own thing. Prior to the dive, you could take additional training to help you better deal with an emergency situation, and learn ways to help a panic'd diver calm down.

Now think of the things you can do if you're no longer with your buddy to help them........ Ummmm........ Yeah......

Now let's say you did take the polaris express, and wound up on the surface with your buddy. What could you do to help them? You could lift their head out of the water. You could ask them if they're ok. You could signal the boat or someone on shore for assistance. You could drop your buddies weight belt, or orally inflate their wing (if they dumped it in panic). You could tow them to the boat / shore, and get someone else to help you with the situation.

Now what about the risks of DCS associated with a fast ascent after your buddy is safe and sound. If the time on the surface is less than 5 minutes and your buddy is calm, relaxed, and squared away, you could head back down for a safety stop. Prior to this dive, if this is something you would ever consider, then you could take additional training that would help you decide when this is a safe option and when it isn't. If you feel uncomfortable for any reason in doing this, you could head to the boat / shore, and find someone with Oxygen. Prior to the dive, if you're concerned that there may not be any Oxygen available to help with this sort of situation or you're unfamiliar with the benefits of Oxygen in this type of situation, you could take a DAN class on the subject, and get your own bottle. If anything feels out of the ordinary, you can always seek medical attention.

All I'm trying to get at is that if you are with your buddy, you have options. If you leave your buddy, the options are reduced, and the risk of something bad happening increase. For me, when I look at the risks of a DCS hit vs. the risks associated with leaving my buddy alone in an emergency situation, I'll take the DCS hit every time to stay with my buddy.

DISCLAIMER: My above rant is intended for recreational dives. This changes a bit when you go deeper or if you do cave / wreck penetration dives, but the risks can still be reduced with situational awareness, experience, additional training, and working your way up to this level with people you know and trust with your life.

~ Jason

 

[TSandM]

I honestly hope that I am never in the situation of having a totally panicked stranger swim up to me at deeper than 100', grab my primary regulator, and bolt for the surface. It would be a horrible experience. But I do know one thing -- I'm pretty sure I could not try yank or jerk my regulator out of their mouth to save myself from the risk of a DCS hit. I simply could not live with myself if the person subsequently drowned, and I was fine. That would be as true for a stranger as it would be for my own buddies, to whom I have made a commitment to do whatever I can to keep them safe.

If somebody grabbed my reg and bolted, I would do what I could to slow the ascent; what I could to communicate with the panicked person; and what I could to let my own buddy know what was going on and get whatever help he could offer. But the panicked diver I saw during our Rec 2 class was not thinking and was not reacting to our efforts to communicate with him, and I can easily imagine a scenario where someone was simply too far from rational to control. I'd probably get bent. I'd rather that than be responsible for someone drowning.

But this is also why I, along with several other posters, am careful about the dives I do and with whom I do them. The random factor is beyond my control, particularly at the popular dive sites where I dive.

 

[darkpup]

Is this reasonably safe? In OW we were always taught never to go back down. Of course, I guess theres exceptions to every rule, but I'm not qualified enough to know them

Depends on your level of training, experience, frame of mind, and the environment. From a decompression stand point, you have about 5 minutes to exit the water and enter a chamber, or at least that's how the Navy / Commercial divers do it. A chamber however is a lot safer than going back down after an emergency ascent due to the risk of drowning. So yes, you can reduce your risk of a DCS hit by going back down to do your safety stops. You just have to decide if the risk of a DCS hit is worth the additional in water risks associated with the safety stops.

The OW training you received makes the decision for you. They decide that at your current level of training and experience, while diving within NDL recreational limits, your chance of drowning while going back down to do your stops is more dangerous than the remote chance you'd actually take a DCS hit. I would agree with them, but as you get more experience and training under your belt, going back down for your safety stop is completely acceptable IMO.

It's all about risk management, and the more training and experience you acquire over the years will help you make better decisions with regards to this stuff.

~ Jason

 

[IceIce]

Imho, everything seem ideal and easy to solve when we are in front of a keyboard.

Honestly, if I was enjoying my dive, maybe trying to take pictures, when someone (my buddy or stranger) took my octopus and carried me to the surface, I might need sometime to adjust to the situation and found out what is going wrong. After that, I might not have enough time to react the ideal ways (like trying to calm the diver/communicate), I don't even think I'd be able to dump the air in their BCD, considering the limited time and maybe, unfamiliar equipment.

That's left me with 2 options:
1. Ride with them to the surface
2. Yank the regulator out of their mouth.

1. I think I might go with number 1, not by choice.
Because like I said, first, I might not react fast enough. As I like to dive neutral (not purposely negative), I can be easily dragged by someone. For instance, when it's time to ascent, I don't need to fin/to add air or to do anything), I would just relax, slowly inhale and I'd be positive. It takes time by I don't rush my ascent. So I assume if someone is dragging me up, I won't have time to communicate or do anything like dumping their air.
The most I could do is slow them down, but I'm not sure I could do much.
As when someone took your reg and ran to surface, they must be not in calm condition, worse still, they might be panic and surface for them is life, they will fight for that, they will fight you, and panic people are strong.
Take off fins, not a possibility, imo. They could kick your mask or your chest out before you managed to know how to take off their fins.
In this situation, I'd be forced to ride up with them. Hopefully we'd be alright, but his/her ear won't be spared from my speech.

2. All I might, this is what I likely to do, to forcibly yank the regulator off so they won't drag me to surface. My consideration is no good can possibly come out from us going up at speed together, we might not be separated, but I'm not sure that we are able to help each other once we got hit. And I assume if the can drag me up, they must be positive, I assume they would make it to the surface. Then I can go up and help them because I'm not injured (because I don't do the rocket stunt), I'd be useless to him if I'm injured together with him.

Another scenario, if once I got back my reg, and they come back down to retrieve it, that's maybe when I could communicate with them. If they coming back to me with this wild eyes and stronger than life intention to rob me again, with my instinct I would try to avoid them because maybe, for the second time, once they got hold on me, they wouldn't give me a chance to get rid of them, and it could be fatal, for us.

OTOH, if the diver is my (always) buddy, I'm sure he won't panic. But if he is, I will ride with him to the surface, there's no way I let him feel abandoned when he need me the most. If he does that, I'm pretty sure something else is wrong and the emergency is real. That's because I'm familiar with him. (That's an advantage that insta buddy or strangers don't have).

 

[IceIce]

BTW, in my area, I hardly see anybody with DIR setup, so one day there is this guy who always try to impress everybody in the wrong way since the beginning (he took OW with me, but proceed to other certifications much faster) dive with what he said is DIR setup, and yes, with 7 feet hose around his neck.

For me, I'm not familiar with DIR, so I'm not in place to make judgement.

But that time, when the only thing we know about DIR is what the guy boasts about, everybody thinks he is crazy. (Talk about wrong spokeperson!)

 

[terrasmak]

I just had this horrible thought:

Lets say we are down around 100 ft and my buddy goes OOA. Of course, I donate my octo, and he accepts. My buddy then proceeds to abandon all training, and with a BC full of air, decides its time to start rocketing to the surface - dragging me along behind him. What do you do?

Take rescue so you will know what to do before it happens.

 

[Nemrod]

Bill, you make a good point. In 1984 my wife and I had landed down on Mustang Island in the Grumman. We were walking down to the beach when I saw a Bonnanza (Vee Tailed Doctor Killer) come into the pattern. Something just did not look right and I started back to the strip. Yeah, he was on final with no gear down. Now, I used to run marathons and ran track and cross country some so I am pretty fast and I lit out running. I ran and leaped across a sand berm and standing in the middle of the runway waving my arms over my head this Bonannza went right over my head with me waving for all get out and he just waved back. Made a beautiful gear up landing. Two doctors, yep, I walked up and asked him if he saw me waving and he answered yes. I asked him why he did not go around and he had no answer. I told him that was going to be an expensive landing and walked off. I smuggly told my wife how smart we were that our airplane had a fixed gear, "at least we don't have to worry about that" she said. You know, as if there were not plenty of other things to spoil a fine day. Always the unexpected things that get you when your focused on something else, like making the great landing to impress your doctor lady friend.

N, been there and done that, next?

 

[Nemrod]

Darkpup writes:

"And yes, Nemrod is a troll."


More name calling, hmmm.

The OP question presents a problem for this perfect world and always perfect buddy sense of false security. Any parting with the all in black, doubles for every dive, no pony and seven foot hose, donate your primary mantra is a TROLL. My answer, whatever, lol.

Control over the situation is crucial, regardless of other distractions, anything that prevents or reduces one's control over the situation likewise increases the potental for a bad outcome. For some things there is no answer, even the best prepared divers can come up against a no win circumstance. If your "buddy" takes off for the surface the real question is are you willing to go with him/her, sometimes the answer is yes.

N, lone wolf

 

[Puffer Fish]

They never punch, more like claw you.. and they have super human strength.

As I had an octo, when no one else did, I attracted OOA people like flies. Never my buddy, nope, but some stranger, usually grabbing my reg from behind..

I never lost one, or had one go to a chamber, but it sure was scary, and nothing like any practice drill.

I never saw anyone calm anyone in that position.

I suspect, that in the event of a skilled diver, with equipment failure, that would not be the case... just never saw that happen.

And if they want to go to the surface... you had better slow them down , or let them go.... or you wil be in a chamber with them, or worse.

I would donate a regulator to the panicked diver.

I would grab them by the shoulder strap and get in their face and try to make eye contact. I would not let go of the diver if it was a no deco dive.

If they began swimming upward very fast, I would deflate their bc and then also try to do the same to my BC to slow the ascent as we got shallower.

I would not try to stop them in the ascent but would just try to calmly take shallow breaths and use my fins to make as much drag as possible and essentially ride the diver up. Trying to swim down would require loss of control of the diver and would probably kick them in the face and flood their mask

To say that you would yank your reg back if the diver didn't stop panicking is crazy. Either you are a buddy who will risk your life for someone or you are not a worthwhile buddy. (Are you only gonna help if they don't really need it?)

My perception of diving with most everyone is that they are a safety liability to me, but I will accept this and the responsibility to provide assistance even when it will endanger my life (or scare the crap out of me).


And another thought, deliberately taking a working regulator from a completely panicked adrenaline-pumped buddy might well result in you losing the battle. I suspect that if I was really panicked and in dire need of my buddy's octopus and then s/he forceably took it away from me, they might well receive a punch to face which could quite likely break the mask and knock them completely unconcious; THEN I would take the regulator back. Taking a regulator away my escalate the situation much more than people realize. I also have experience ridding a buddy to the surface..it happens very fast.