On what it is like to be a new diver

[admikar]

Take the class and get your OW card. Then you have the choice of diving like a Discover Scuba first timer or learn how to actually dive. The info is out there if you want it.

When I did my private pilot course, after completion I was given a " licence to learn". My dive lessons were done on the bottom , on my knees. Got my card, searched the net and got myself here. So, now I do it "the right way".

 

[Doc]

I think the OP has some very valid points, here are some different ways to think about this, and for the sake of brevity, I'll just throw out the most extreme counter propositions....

I tried to ask questions and evaluate shops and instructors.

Observation 1. The shops I spoke with work with multiple instructors. It is not possible to "interview" the person who will be teaching, at any shop I contacted.

How does one formulate and ask questions about something not known? How does one process "the answer"?
Shoppers will predictably arrive asking the questions that they commonly will. The "deep and probing" questions about instruction are usually generated by internet research from TripAdvisor and experiences related by co-workers who did resort courses in Mexico.

Observation 2. When taking OWD instruction or other classes that involve use of a pool, it may be best to use a dive shop that has an in-house pool.

If a shop has its own pool, it means it has deep pockets. It might be a good, or it might mean that it's a churn-and-burn. I would highly recommend the seeking of employment at these in-house-pool-shops as there will be a lot less fussing about hauling tanks. For the customer, when done correctly, either choice should be seamless. The thought of an off-prem pool adding to the cost is specious, if shops with disparate facilities compete, both going to have to do internal accounting, robbing Peter to pay Paul. In short: either you rent pool to use or you pay to maintain your own on prem. $ame $ame.

The shop I originally worked with no longer conducts classroom sessions. They steer all students to the PADI on-line training. Other shops offer both.

And so, to the point, it begins. (I am no stranger to PADI bashing myself)

but potential students should realize that:

Observation 3. It may be necessary to call several shops to find classroom training instead of on-line training.

This requires a huge jump in logic over the (endless and unproven) argument of on-line versus classroom.

Observation 4. When comparing classes, the difference in add-on fees can be significant.

I ended up at a PADI shop more or less by accident. There are a number of required add-on charges that PADI shops impose that I have since learned are not universal, among them: The C-card fee, the purchase of an expensive PADI dive log book, and the purchase of an RDP. These three items alone total over $100. For classroom a hard-copy book and a DVD may also be required.

Again, the market will prevail. If this model that you (now) perceive as being an ala-carte hidden fee situation was not in-line with the other local shops (be they SDI or NAUI or PUSI), the "word" will get out and they will have to adjust their business model very quickly. Especially in Minnesota where the audience is as slim as the sellers.

MOST people do not end up at PADI shops by accident. They might not fully comprehend why they wound up there, but I can assure you, it was no "accident".

I ended up with an XS Scuba "fusion," ....eventually arrived together at the conclusion that it was best for me to keep what I have.

"Most" noob divers get locked onto their first mask to the point that they look to replace it with the identical model even if they have to resort to eBay. That subject is quite in-line with the general proposed topic of your post, but an entire imponderable in and unto itself.

Observation 5.

Even the best shops are in business to sell gear. Caveat emptor.

Ahh, unlike a bakery or bike store. If "shoppers" need to be "warned" that if by entering a "retail store" that they might be meeting a "Venditor", they might need more basic assistance than you are proposing here. It is no different than setting your heart on a Chevy and winding up getting stuck in an elevator with a Ford salesman. I sell this because it's the best, that's why I dive with it, you should too.

My confined water dives were with a shop that also offers TDI courses, something I'd looked for since I was trying to get a more analytical, "thinking diver" approach to the activity. But the OWD instructor assigned to me, though very good at teaching basic skills, had no background or interest in tech diving. I asked questions about gas planning and rock bottom calculations and he looked at me like I was from another planet and said his usual approach was to end a dive at 500-600 PSI. Therefore I observe, at the risk of overgeneralizing:

Observation 6. Few OWD instructors take a thinking, analytical approach to diving.

Right conclusion, but bad math to get there.

If you want a gourmet hamburger, go to a restaurant that has that on the menu.

If you don't know if you want Portobello Mushrooms, maybe just go to Burger King first.

It is no different than any other teaching methodology, as long as you think of it in an industrial scale, like any large corporation of the military. This is what they came here for, this is how we will teach them. Those who excel and become desirous of more in-depth skills shall be ___________. (Fill in the blank with: promoted; laughed at; beaten; offered that advanced training)

You sign up for OW, that's what you'll get. The shop is not going to put Yoda in the pool on Tuesday night to teach you how to 'always keep breathing'. If the shop is so small that Yoda is the only employee, he's still going to be very busy explaining mask defog to Mommy and her snot nosed kid.

How did I approach noobs in any one of several endeavors of which I instruct? Until I got the first thousand or so through it, I was just thrilled that they all were breathing or not smashed into a wall or shot when we were through. Experience has mellowed me, but I am not complacent. I also understand that if I'm teaching somebody to crawl, we can talk about "walking" outside of that specific classroom environment. Otherwise, I'm just using that paid-for and allotted time making (what to some would be) a sales pitch.

Observation 8. Most casual divers will never have the patience to assemble a Hogarthian harness.

My confined water instructor had an Air2 and, when I asked, said he only added the octo to his rig for the class. This varies locally from shop to shop as the other PADI shop I had spoken with in detail taught primary donate with an Air2.

"Most casual divers will never have the patience to assemble a" common tank strap cam band. So what's your point ?

I thought we were talking about perceptions of new divers. Is HOG something like PADI?

BTW- I really like my various AIR2 configurations. Would I expose an impressionable young head-full-of-mush to this object which I put into the 'high level of training' use structure? No. You saw this exotica during PADI training, really?

(I did my PADI IDC with a BPW, AIR2 and some other odd stuff and boy, did I get the stink eye. My other Agency tests for Instructor level, not so much, but they all mention marketing the store... wear/use/sell what's "in the cart". Dive Masters get all the chicks, but- Students look at Instructors as role models for gear purchase.)

While I'm not going to claim to have enough experience to have an opinion of my own, I will observe that:

Observation 9. The industry ought to be able to do better, on the whole, in consistent instructional standards for OOA that match what divers do in the real world.

That's where a real-deal instructor might be best evaluated.

If you ask an instructor, "When my buddy is out of air, what is likely to occur?", and he answers with....

"Your buddy will signal OOA and swim the 4.8 feet towards you and you will link up with him as you extend your octopus and you will then orient before making a slow controlled ascent...."

If a potential instructor tells a potential student that, how on earth would the Emptor even know to Caveat himself the Hell away from that Venditor?

 

[2airishuman]

How does one formulate and ask questions about something not known? How does one process "the answer"?
Shoppers will predictably arrive asking the questions that they commonly will. The "deep and probing" questions about instruction are usually generated by internet research from TripAdvisor and experiences related by co-workers who did resort courses in Mexico.

I think we agree. Here on SB the idea is widely mooted that students should interview their instructors and select the most suitable instructor. My point is: that just doesn't work. The practical problems in contacting potential instructors are, as you point out, compounded by the fact that students who are completely new to diving are poorly equipped to ask the right questions and evaluate the responses.

If a shop has its own pool, it means it has deep pockets. It might be a good, or it might mean that it's a churn-and-burn. I would highly recommend the seeking of employment at these in-house-pool-shops as there will be a lot less fussing about hauling tanks. For the customer, when done correctly, either choice should be seamless. The thought of an off-prem pool adding to the cost is specious, if shops with disparate facilities compete, both going to have to do internal accounting, robbing Peter to pay Paul. In short: either you rent pool to use or you pay to maintain your own on prem. $ame $ame.

I don't think I was clear. The problem specifically is that, with an off-prem pool, each class has to make enough money to cover the rental costs or the shop will want cancel it. With an in-house pool the math is longer term.

This requires a huge jump in logic over the (endless and unproven) argument of on-line versus classroom.

I don't have a horse in that race. I was just making the point that for those students who prefer classroom, it's important to ask around.

Again, the market will prevail. If this model that you (now) perceive as being an ala-carte hidden fee situation was not in-line with the other local shops (be they SDI or NAUI or PUSI), the "word" will get out and they will have to adjust their business model very quickly. Especially in Minnesota where the audience is as slim as the sellers.

MOST people do not end up at PADI shops by accident. They might not fully comprehend why they wound up there, but I can assure you, it was no "accident".

Well, I'm doing my part to get the "word" out, right here.

"Most" noob divers get locked onto their first mask to the point that they look to replace it with the identical model even if they have to resort to eBay. That subject is quite in-line with the general proposed topic of your post, but an entire imponderable in and unto itself.

Ahh, unlike a bakery or bike store. If "shoppers" need to be "warned" that if by entering a "retail store" that they might be meeting a "Venditor", they might need more basic assistance than you are proposing here. It is no different than setting your heart on a Chevy and winding up getting stuck in an elevator with a Ford salesman. I sell this because it's the best, that's why I dive with it, you should too.

The received wisdom is that students should trust the dive shop to get them the right mask, particularly, and to a lesser extent the right snorkel and fins. The broader point I'm trying to make is that this doesn't always work the way it is supposed to.

BTW- I really like my various AIR2 configurations. Would I expose an impressionable young head-full-of-mush to this object which I put into the 'high level of training' use structure? No. You saw this exotica during PADI training, really?

Yes, really. The other PADI shop, the one I dealt with first, uses an AIR2 (or some other manufacturer's equivalent) on their student and rental gear and teaches primary donation in their OWD classes.

(I did my PADI IDC with a BPW, AIR2 and some other odd stuff and boy, did I get the stink eye. My other Agency tests for Instructor level, not so much, but they all mention marketing the store... wear/use/sell what's "in the cart". Dive Masters get all the chicks, but- Students look at Instructors as role models for gear purchase.)

I wish there were a nonprofit dive club in my area, so that the conflict of interest in these situations would be weaker.

Diving seems to me fairly unique in that there are still full-service shops that expect to tie instruction, sales, and service together. Other stuff I've done isn't like that. You mention aviation; the places I took pilot training didn't try to sell me much of anything gear-wise and said I was probably better off ordering from Sporty's. Music also comes to mind, where the system of instructor commissions on instrument sales was abolished in most places years ago.

If you ask an instructor, "When my buddy is out of air, what is likely to occur?", and he answers with....

"Your buddy will signal OOA and swim the 4.8 feet towards you and you will link up with him as you extend your octopus and you will then orient before making a slow controlled ascent...."

If a potential instructor tells a potential student that, how on earth would the Emptor even know to Caveat himself the Hell away from that Venditor?

SB to the rescue, I suppose. It was pretty clear that my instructor thought that the scenario you describe (which is exactly what he taught) was bull****, but that he expected based on our performance as students that we would be able to muddle through whatever actually happened.

What I find more frightening is that nowhere in the instructional process did anyone articulate any useful ideas about gas planning, beyond ascending when your spg hits 500 (and vague statements that you maybe need more gas at depth or in a current). The math behind gas planning is not that difficult and can be reduced to spreadsheets, tables, and smartphone apps.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Jim, I'm sorry, but I think I have to disagree with you on this. I do absolutely agree that the individual instructor can make a difference, but you have to be reasonably practical here. I am one of a bunch of instructors associated with the shop with which I work. I just got my spring schedule earlier today. If someone wants to interview me to see if I am good enough to teach the class that is scheduled on the time slot when they want to take the class, how are they going to do that? I will be in Florida for two months prior to my first scheduled class. Am I supposed to fly back to Colorado to meet a prospective student to see if that student, in his or her infinite wisdom and ability to discern instructor competence, deems me competent enough to teach the most basic class in scuba instruction? Even if I am in town, do you really think anything valuable is going to happen? Do you really think that this student has the ability to choose the instructor so well that he or she is going to make an intelligent choice? Is the shop management going to call all the instructors for this shop in for a lineup so that this discerning student can select the best of the lot, like some sort of a bizarre Miss Universe contest? It's not going to happen, and calling for students to do something like that is like calling for them to find a unicorn.

Interviews can be done via e-mail ... I have done dozens of them that way prior to ever meeting a student in person. In some cases, it resulted in either the student deciding I wasn't offering what they were looking for or in me recommending to them that they would be better off with a different instructor ... sometimes even in my recommending the instructor I thought more suited to what they were looking for.

There is an inherent conflict of interest between the needs of the student and the business interest of either the shop or instructor. An interview often helps identify those conflicts ... and they sometimes have little to do with the actual content of or approach to the training.

I will not, personally, accept a student I haven't spoken to before the class begins ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added January 6th, 2016 at 07:43 AM ----------

I'm out of OW for a few years now but still a newb diver. My take on this is not popular here on SB but the reality is, the OW book knowledge can be taught by a monkey. No instructor required, for the most part. The skills, similarly, don't take rocket science to figure out but having a competent diver show them to you can help tremendously. What would be better is to video every new diver and give them visual feedback on how THEY are doing to help improve skills immediately. Almost everyone thinks they are doing better at a given skill than they really are. Add one session of 30 minutes for the divers to go over their own performance at the end of each pool session and you have a lot of real-world feedback that is more valuable than any single instructor, no matter how good.

It's not the instructor that makes an OW class quality (though it makes a difference). What really matters, though, is the student's willingness to learn, which is the case in almost every single educational situation there is. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but as a blanket statement, I'll take a motivated student over a "good" instructor any time for OW course.

Partly correct ... how a student approaches the class is at least as important as how the instructor does. However, the real value of an instructor isn't to present the curriculum so much as it is to "fill in the gaps" between what the book says and how it applies to the real world. There is tremendous value in asking questions ... particularly those that begin with the word "why". The problem with a lot of instructors is that they don't know why ... they can quote the curriculum chapter and verse, but they don't have much of a clue what it means or why it matters. That's particularly true of instructors who went from class to class to class in order to meet the minimum requirements for becoming instructors.

The second real value an instructor can offer is to provide a good example of what a diver is supposed to look like ... and you can't do that while parked on your knees. I do mostly follow-on classes ... post-OW ... to train divers remedial skills. Many of those who come to me look like they should never have been granted an OW certification. Many can't even look at their compass without first landing on their knees ... because that's all they were ever taught to do. Many can't clear a mask without some level of trepidation of stress ... because they were only ever required to do it once in OW class, and that while they were kneeling and expecting to have to do it. The real value of an instructor isn't so much to teach skills and knowledge (you can get that from a book and from watching a video) as it is to instill context and confidence in the student diver ... approach something like clearing a mask like it ain't a big whoop, because it really isn't.

Class is less about learning skills than it is about learning how to learn. It's like playing a piano ... you don't "learn" the piano by taking a class, you "learn" by practicing over and over and over after the class is done, until producing the sounds you want becomes a matter of second-nature. Diving is no different. The instructor isn't teaching you how to dive ... they're training you how to learn by providing the context and example you need to practice correctly. This has little to do with the curriculum, the knowledge, or the skills themselves ... which can be equally applied to quality diving skills or train wrecks ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added January 6th, 2016 at 07:50 AM ----------

What I find more frightening is that nowhere in the instructional process did anyone articulate any useful ideas about gas planning, beyond ascending when your spg hits 500 (and vague statements that you maybe need more gas at depth or in a current). The math behind gas planning is not that difficult and can be reduced to spreadsheets, tables, and smartphone apps.

Yeah ... I introduced this article to ScubaBoard in 2004. It, or something like it, has since been used by dozens of instructors who frequent this board. Gas management is the most important skill generally ignored by the major agencies. Many claim it's unnecessary ... which flies in the face of the frequency of divers who run OOA underwater, or even in the fact that all agencies spend so much time training and practicing what to do in the event of an OOA emergency ... why not give equal time to helping people learn how not to? Rather than teaching reactive techniques such as "abort your dive when your SPG reaches a certain level", why not train people to figure out ... before the dive ... how to factor into their dive plan that they're carrying adequate supplies for the dive they're planning? We do, after all, train them to "plan your dive and dive your plan" ... gas management is an inherent part of that process.

Some people claim that doing the math is too hard. I've taught 12-year olds who routinely put the lie to that claim. The fact is that it requires fourth-grade arithmetic skills, and anyone old enough to dive should be able to do it. You just have to decide that it matters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TMHeimer]

Nice post John.

I wasted a bunch of time last night trying to contact my 8 students for my class this week. Our policy is to contact the students before class to "interview" them. Talk about expectations, what they need to do before class, answer questions they may have so far, etc. I could not get a hold of any of them. Had to leave voice messages. Finally just sent an email to them. Up to them now.

Not everyone is the "theoretical" SB student or SB instructor.[/QUOTE





***********************
One of our instructors also sends out the e mails, telling students what they should have done before class (obviously to begin with, all the e learning). This would seem the most practical way. I have hated voice mail since the beginning. It gets so abused.

 

[Hawkwood]

And so far not one of them has been in touch.

 

[boulderjohn]

Interviews can be done via e-mail ... I have done dozens of them that way prior to ever meeting a student in person. In some cases, it resulted in either the student deciding I wasn't offering what they were looking for or in me recommending to them that they would be better off with a different instructor ... sometimes even in my recommending the instructor I thought more suited to what they were looking for.

I believe there is a big difference between your situation and the situation a lot of people face, especially in my area.

You live in a great place for local scuba diving, and in places like that, independent instructors (like you) thrive. I spend part of every winter in South Florida, which is a similar location. I could be an independent instructor there easily, and I have done some independent instructing there for friends who have come there for that purpose. Because of the nature of the area, many shops are set up to assist the independent instructors so that they get the associated business they bring. I would have no trouble working out all the deals I needed so that I would not need to deal with the immense overhead associated with scuba instruction.

Here in middle America, where the two best dive sites reasonably close to me are 21 feet deep and 33 feet deep respectively, with poor visibility, there are very, very few independent instructors. Without any such market, local operators see no value in catering to it. I would therefore have to deal with all that overhead (compressors, rental gear, pool rental fees, etc.) The shop where I presently work rents pool space in a nearby recreation center and then puts as many students in that space as possible. You can have an OW class, some rescue students, and a refresher in at the same time, all for the same pool rental fee. That distributes the pool cost nicely. Last week I was in the pool with two tech students, sharing the space with a bunch of other students in other classes. If I just had my two tech students, the cost of the pool space would have made the class a real money loser. The local dive sites also require a fee for instruction. Instructors have to be insured for that site, and there is an annual fee allowing them to teach the open water dives there. The annual fee is the same for one independent instructor doing a couple of classes as it is for a shop doing all its classes. Consequently, if you want to be an instructor in a state like this, you almost have to be a shop employee, subject to the scheduling of the shop.

In addition, because of the lack of good local diving, most of our students do only the classroom and pool with us and then finish the class during a tropical vacation. That means that it is close to impossible to have a class go all the way through the entire OW instructional process together, which further means that it is rare for the instructor doing the pool work with a student to do the open water dives as well. Each 6 months I get a teaching schedule, and it includes some pool sessions and some OW sessions, and I rarely have any of the same students in both.

When a student is interested in OW instruction, the student selects a shop and gets a look at the schedule. If there is a class going on a date that is good for the student, then the student is put in it, and the student gets the instructor who was assigned to that class months ago. If the student somehow knows that instructor and wants a different one (I doubt that has ever happened), then the student will need to select a different class session that will also match his or her scheduling needs. It is also possible for students to request a session not on the schedule. The student may have to pay a little extra for that. When that happens, the shop sends out an email to all instructors, asking if anyone is available on those dates to teach the class. Many times only one instructor is available, and that is who the student gets.

Sometimes students do request a specific instructor or a specific class that is only taught by one instructor. (As the shop's only tech instructor, that is how I get a number of my classes.) There are also specialty classes that have limited a choice of instructors certified to teach it--dry suit, for example. In the more advanced classes like this, then there is a significant amount of cases of students selecting the instructor. Every one of my tech students so far has known me before agreeing to take the class, and some are coming from quite some distance to do it. This thread, however, is not about tech students.

That is the reality where I live, and it is a far cry from areas with excellent local diving and loads of operators just down the road. A brand new OW student is not going to find it easy to select the instructor.

 

[seeker242]

Offer politely to take your custom elsewhere.

Trust me, it's a buyer's market...

Like I said, I had 3 different instructors for my OW training, depending on who was working that day that I was available. Should I have went and interviewed each one of them, when I didn't even know there was going to be more than one? That a bit unrealistic if you ask me.

Furthermore, even if I did interview each one of them, how would I know if they are any good to begin with? I have nothing to compare them to. Ask around other divers on snorkeling boats for referrals? Alright, how do I know the people I'm asking actually know what they are talking about? I have had several people tell me "hey, this guy here is a really good instructor" Turn out this is the same guy that got expelled from PADI... My point is the advice to "find a good instructor", to a brand new diver, is essentially meaningless and impossible advice to follow.

I would say it's different once you get to know some people and their reputations, etc. But, that normally only happens after a person gets their training and starts actually diving with the locals, etc.

 

[TMHeimer]

boulderjohn, In many ways your situation in CO is similar to ours. And we have the Atlantic at our doorstep.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Here on SB the idea is widely . . . .

There's the crux of the matter right there. We have this fantastic resource, SB, in which we can absorb the collective wisdom of highly experienced divers. But it isn't of interest to most divers. I think the System of shops and major-agency OW instructors who teach whirlwind courses, as full of potential conflict-of-interest as the System may be, serves most divers reasonably well. I think it's the way it is because economics and the desires and abilities of the average OW student dictate it. The low market price for an OW course has to be offset by gear sales, dive trips, etc. As far as I know, statistics bear out that "be back on the boat with 500 psi" is not resulting in that many out-of-air incidents. That's not to say that improvement is impossible--inroads are being made in some areas, such as the idea that students don't need to kneel on the bottom quite so much. But I doubt the System will change radically. It works well enough for the majority of divers to dive safely enough.

For those few prospective OW students who come across SB and find themselves agreeing with those who point out inadequacies in the System, there are alternatives to the System. There are instructors out there--some are on SB--who charge a little more but will gladly speak with the prospective student, will not try to tie the course to gear sales, will teach to high standards, cover proper buoyancy and trim and real gas planning, etc. The course may take more days than a typical OW course. Those instructors may not be local to the prospective student, adding to the cost, of course. But this alternative to the System that mass-produces minimally competent new divers IS available to those few to whom it appeals. One just has to pay for it.