Old steels denied fills due to store "policy"

[Boiler_81]

I sure hope E Force is reading this thread. Based on my experience and the other three who have expressed frustration with the arbitrary fill policies, it would seem prudent for them to address this internally and externally.

The original post in this thread was made about a year ago, and I did not notice it for a long time. I was not back in Florida until a few weeks ago, and when I went in to Force E, I asked them about their fill policy without mentioning this thread. They said they would not fill an aluminum tank made before 1989 (31 years ago). They said steel tanks had no limits. I then told them about this thread, and the people there were dumbfounded--they had never had such a policy. I also told Ana, who was also dumbfounded, and I am sure she was not making it up.

So something happened with some employee who clearly misunderstood something. That shop will fill steel tanks of any age, assuming they have had the standard inspections.

I don't know if Force E removed their head from their behind. Don't care if they choose to acknowledge the event or not, it was more than the denial on a Sunday I contacted them through their website asking for their "policy" and they responded asking me how old were my tanks.
I stop communications with them at that point. Good if they are behaving like non a$$holes these days, but I don't need to deal with them.
Found another place since Pompano Dive Center stopped being an option, and would buy a compressor if Force E becomes the only place in South Florida to get a fill.

That happens to my LP 121s every now and then. Except they're mistaken for HPs and juiced to 3500 psi. My last fill one was loaded to 3700 and I purged about 300 psi out to spare the burst discs (which are supposed to go at 4000). But hey, on the next dive I essentially have double 80s in one tank, albeit it's a water heater that crushes my vertebrae and requires a doubles wing ...


To respond to the OP, I've had my own issues with Force-E Riviera. I typically get my tanks hydro'd and vis'd in Miami, and the two shops I use both apply nitrox stickers that say good up to 40% O2. Nevermind that Austin's uses O2-compatible lube and o-rings on everything, I never use mixes higher than ~36 +/- 1% O2, and that "O2 clean" is really only sacrosanct until your first refill ... every single time I've taken my steel nitrox tanks into Force-E Riviera, they insist on pulling the valve off and making sure everything is "O2 clean" for their partial-pressure blending setup. Which means nowadays I either fill my tanks in Miami, pop across the bridge to Pura Vida, or drive a bit farther up US-1 to hit Scuba Works so I don't need to take extra time out of my morning for that Mickey Mouse bit.

I regularly do business with Force E in Riviera Beach and have been since they opened, their technician is the only one that I absolutely trust to service my regulators, he has been doing it for over 30 years. That being said I will not let them touch my tanks due to their policies on older tanks, 10 of my 12 tanks are over 30 years old and I personally know or have spoken to many people that have had problems with their various policies on tanks. They have some great people that work at the store but unfortunately, they have to follow corporate policies without exception. I am also limited on where I can fill my tanks as there is no need to O2 clean my tanks every year if I am using pre-blended Nitrox at less than 40% but some shops require that so I do not take my tanks to them. I have also worked at an LDS many years ago that did hydrostatic testing on-site and have seen many tanks fail due to abuse, I have even been at the shop when a tank valve blew off and went through the roof of the shop during a fill when the threads in the neck failed. I have seen the damage at several shops where tanks failed. one went through a concrete block wall! I also know of a dive boat that had an onboard compressor to fill the tanks, that were stored and filled in the racks while exposed to the elements and had a tank failure, at the valve threads, on a tank that was within both inspections. When they brought the rest of the tanks to the shop to be inspected they all failed due to corrosion, more than 40 aluminum tanks that were less than 10 years old! Every tank that I have seen fail was due to some form of abuse of the tank and I absolutely trust my old tanks as they are and have been well cared for over the years.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Two guys I know bought a used compressor from a failed dive shop back during the recession in 2010.
It is a large commercial unit with all the cascade bottles etc.
It needed a lot of work but one of the guys was a Toyota mechanic so not a big deal for him to Work on it.
They got it all rebuilt, new filters, and delivering super clean air. He also built a nitrox stick.
I think this could be done in the dive club model. A compressor could be acquired and kept at the clubhouse and run by certain people at certain times. The fills would be included in a membership. It would be the co-op model.
I recently ran across a fairly good size Bauer compressor sitting in the back of a local fire station. There was nothing wrong with it, or was replaced because the station got state money to get a new bigger better one so had to spend it.
I could probably get it fairly cheap.

 

[drbill]

I don't think I have a tank younger than 45 years (except my pony bottles) and they get filled here without question.

 

[Nemrod]

I have run into these "store" policies frequently in Florida, SoFla in particular. They will not fill a cylinder older than 15 years old. Or a (old) steel 72 and in this case I agree with them, the early (bad alloy) aluminum cylinders.

I have gone to aluminum 63s for warm water use instead of steel LP 72s, they dive nearly the same. At standard fill the difference is not enough to bother me at shallower depths and deeper I go to 80s. This for warm water use of course. The arguments wear me out and are not worth the grief. N

 

[Nemrod]

Like @broncobowsher I'll play devils advocate and be unpopular at the same time

The issue with cylinders, is that there is no real record of their history.

With a Steel tank (especially) you have no proof of history - even if you're the original owner. The shop has no idea if you've tumbled the tank on numerous occasions or used abrasives on the external faces to remove corrosion. They have no way to assess if the wall thickness of the tank is within limits.

That is the purpose of the hydro. A hydro plus VIP should be enough. If VIPs mean nothing, why not just get rid of this profit source. I mean, if it means nothing, why have it.

These are private businesses I agree with their right to have (possibly stupid) policies but I do not have to spend my money with them either.

As I told one well know SoFla shop, after having picked out nearly $400 in equipment plus fills, when they refused to fill my tanks, I thanked them and left. They got upset I did not buy the gear, I told them it was all on Amazon cheaper, I was only supporting them for their other services which they had refused me.

N

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Seems like some shops may not have full confidence in the hydro/VIP process doesn’t it?

I’ve seen some ugly old tanks. (I had a set once myself.) I can understand why shops turn them away. Beat up old tanks, antiquated fill pressures, rough looking manifold that’s 30+ years old, out-of-state or otherwise unknown hydro facility stamp, homemade VIP sticker, being brought in by an out-of-state diver they don’t know. What could go wrong?

Joking aside... Tanks are about the cheapest thing in diving. About 10 years ago, I purged most of my old tanks. Back then, a hydro, VIP, O2 cleaning, valve rebuild, etc was half the cost of a new tank. And, I could recoup $50 by selling the old tank, perhaps more if sold before the hydro expires. Cost probably $25 a tank to upgrade, so it was a no brainer.

Tanks are more expensive now, but I still see good sales now and then. Might be worth considering having some newer ‘travel tanks’ to avoid any ‘Imperial Entanglements’ when traveling thru Hyper Space.

 

[Diving Dubai]

That is the purpose of the hydro. A hydro plus VIP should be enough. If VIPs mean nothing, why not just get rid of this profit source

I apologise if this post is TL;DR

Firstly The Hydro/VIP method is proven to work, by that I mean very few cylinders fail in service while having a current Hydro/Vis

Is it perfect and a 100% guarantee that a cylinder has no defects? No.

You also have the problem at the local level where employees at the LDS can have poor of minimal training and knowledge. The classic case of not distinguishing the differences between Steel and Ali cylinders with regard to their standards and criteria. People read or listen to what they believe is valid information and make decisions based upon it. For that come procedures and rules, often based upon the foundation of falsehoods.

Back to Hydro/Vis.

Most cylinders are condemned by Vis, its actually the primary method. Hydro as you know only tests that the parent material expands and contracts within limits and the cylinder holds pressure. A cylinder with out of limits pitting or cracking (to a degree) will still pass hydro

The SLA failures had all passed hydro, however their defects should have been picked up on Vis (because of the slow growth nature of the defect, and the fact that it could get to a significant size before going critical.

I come from a materials test background. Visual inspection is much maligned (given it uses no fancy equipment) but in fact it requires much diligence and a degree of experience to carry out correctly. Fortunately most people err on the side of caution or seek out a second opinion.

However there are numerous example within the inspection community of clearly apparent defects being missed. Improperly/untrained or lackadaisical inspectors excepted, sometime we "see" what we expect to see, rather than what is before our eyes.

A classic case is proof reading where we see what we thought we've typed/written, rather than what we actually have.

Finally teh FSO (fill station operator) needs to satisfy themselves that the cylinder to be filled not only has valid in date inspections but that they (the FSO ) has confidence in the inspectors knowledge, training and experience.

With Hydro this is easy, since [I assume] in the US its via DOT approved/certified shops, whereas with Vis, not so much given anyone can create and print their own sticker. While I understand the desire in the litigious environment of the US, people want teh protection of anonymity, in reality if you want an robust practice, then the VIP stickers need to have an ident allowing that inspection to be traced to an inspector allowing their certification etc to be checked.

Being a qualified inspector means you have to have the courage of your convictions and accept public responsibility for your pass decisions during the validity of the inspection interval.

The opinion of the FSO is a circular and much debated argument so I'll go no further with it.

Old tanks.

Certainly the statistics back up that there are few failures (although there is no data to show what percentage of tanks remain in service)

People often cite the fact that manufacturers carry out high numbers of pressure tests on samples, together with lack of real world failures and definitive evidence that old cylinders are safe. And yes that argument has validity, however while the risk of failure is low, it's not impossible.

Over the years I've seen lots of in service failures not predicted by the physical testing nor the stress models. While component testing protocols are good, they simply cannot replicate all the variables that a real life component experiences. We just have to accept we get failures that are as low as reasonably practicable.

The FSO/LDS is really left with a few choices:

1. Blindly accept that all inspections have been carried out correctly by appropriately trained and experienced persons.
2. Trust those persons known to them of who have satisfied the shop they they are experienced and competent, for all others insist of their own Vis
3. Insist they only fill cylinders they've inspected themselves thus taking full responsibility.
4 Buy an explosion proof tank and roll the dice or put in place some arbitrary rules with satisfy their own risk factor

Where as divers have the following choices

1. Accept and abide by the Shops rules
2. Go elsewhere.
3. Buy their own compressor

 

[Ben_3]

I’v seen shops here have a policy stating they don’t fill steel tanks +20 years.
I can understand à client’s frustration.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

...

Firstly The Hydro/VIP method is proven to work, by that I mean very few cylinders fail in service while having a current Hydro/Vis

Is it perfect and a 100% guarantee that a cylinder has no defects? No.

...

I come from a materials test background. Visual inspection is much maligned (given it uses no fancy equipment) but in fact it requires much diligence and a degree of experience to carry out correctly. Fortunately most people err on the side of caution or seek out a second opinion.

However there are numerous example within the inspection community of clearly apparent defects being missed. Improperly/untrained or lackadaisical inspectors excepted, sometime we "see" what we expect to see, rather than what is before our eyes.

...

Old tanks.

Certainly the statistics back up that there are few failures (although there is no data to show what percentage of tanks remain in service)

People often cite the fact that manufacturers carry out high numbers of pressure tests on samples, together with lack of real world failures and definitive evidence that old cylinders are safe. And yes that argument has validity, however while the risk of failure is low, it's not impossible.

Over the years I've seen lots of in service failures not predicted by the physical testing nor the stress models. While component testing protocols are good, they simply cannot replicate all the variables that a real life component experiences. We just have to accept we get failures that are as low as reasonably practicable.

The FSO/LDS is really left with a few choices:

1. Blindly accept that all inspections have been carried out correctly by appropriately trained and experienced persons.
2. Trust those persons known to them of who have satisfied the shop they they are experienced and competent, for all others insist of their own Vis
3. Insist they only fill cylinders they've inspected themselves thus taking full responsibility.
4 Buy an explosion proof tank and roll the dice or put in place some arbitrary rules with satisfy their own risk factor

Where as divers have the following choices

1. Accept and abide by the Shops rules
2. Go elsewhere.
3. Buy their own compressor

Just curious, you seem to be conflating the safety record of tanks that undergo regular hydro and viz ("the statistics back up that there are few failures") with your own experiences as a materials inspector (type of materials undisclosed). Makes for a potential apples to oranges comparison; a pressure tank of uniform alloy composition, a simple two-piece (tank+valve) manufacturing design, and undergoing predictable stresses is different than say, a bridge, building, or airplane. Perhaps the closest comparison I can think of is an airliner fuselage designed to tolerate a certain number of pressurization/depressurization cycles with a generous margin for error, and even that is a far more heterogenous design undergoing less regular and predictable stresses.

 

[Ghost95]

Basically a shop can dictate their own policies. Hopefully they would enforce the uniformly but people don't always get the best training. If a shop requires that your tank be visually inspected before every fill, that's their right. They won't be in business very long though.

As far as tanks with current hydro dates and annual visual inspections go (steel tanks anyway) an age limit seems pretty silly. If most tanks are condemned on the basis of visuals then I assume the reason for an annual visual is because corrosion normally wouldn't reach a critical depth in a year. So I'd feel safe filling an old tank (steel) with current hydro and visual regardless of age.

But shops can set their own policies.