OC vs CCR

[BubbleTrouble]

I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but I figured I'd ask because I am grappling with the direction in which to take my diving at present. The ultimate requirement is to get the maximum amount of flexibility in type of diving. So in other words I'd prefer to spend once and dive many.
I am currently doing rec diving mostly with Nitrox. But I also want to get training and capability to do Tec diving, wrecks etc in the next 1-2 years. I don't ever evisage going deeper that 80-100m.

So, talking to the LDS as well as scouring various forums two options exist:
1. Kit up to a point where OC has enough redundancy and gas storage to allow dives to 80-100m. This would mean getting multiple cylinders,bailout,computers etc - the works. This seems to be a popular direction which for a moderate outlay also gives a great amount of diving flexibility.
2. Go for a rebreather - probably a CCR as that gives greatest benefits. I have quickly looked at the Inspiration and Evolution and both seem good and are popular.

This is an academic question at the moment but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Am currently looking at upgrading my electronics. This is what I am thinking of:
1. Get a SUUNTO Vyper to be used as a bottom timer (gauge mode only).
2. At a later stage, get a decent computer with Tec capabilities and gas integration.
3. Still have an attached SPG+DP console in case the electronics fail.
4. Get VPM-B software to cut tables for each deco dive, so you have manual backup.

Does that combination work? Which Tec computer would be good to get to use with OC now, and maybe CCR later? I keep hearing VR3 is awesome but currently has no gas integration.
The cochrans seem good but you can't get them easily in Australia.

Any insight would be wonderful.

cheers
Mike

 

[BubbleTrouble]

Also, I keep hearing that CCR is great at depth, but a bit of a pain in medium ranges. Unfortunately not may people want to share specifics.

In what way is it a pain?

 

[Mr.X]

I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but I figured I'd ask because I am grappling with the direction in which to take my diving at present. The ultimate requirement is to get the maximum amount of flexibility in type of diving. So in other words I'd prefer to spend once and dive many.
I am currently doing rec diving mostly with Nitrox. But I also want to get training and capability to do Tec diving, wrecks etc in the next 1-2 years. I don't ever evisage going deeper that 80-100m.

So, talking to the LDS as well as scouring various forums two options exist:
1. Kit up to a point where OC has enough redundancy and gas storage to allow dives to 80-100m. This would mean getting multiple cylinders,bailout,computers etc - the works. This seems to be a popular direction which for a moderate outlay also gives a great amount of diving flexibility.
2. Go for a rebreather - probably a CCR as that gives greatest benefits. I have quickly looked at the Inspiration and Evolution and both seem good and are popular.

This is an academic question at the moment but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Am currently looking at upgrading my electronics. This is what I am thinking of:
1. Get a SUUNTO Vyper to be used as a bottom timer (gauge mode only).
2. At a later stage, get a decent computer with Tec capabilities and gas integration.
3. Still have an attached SPG+DP console in case the electronics fail.
4. Get VPM-B software to cut tables for each deco dive, so you have manual backup.

Does that combination work? Which Tec computer would be good to get to use with OC now, and maybe CCR later? I keep hearing VR3 is awesome but currently has no gas integration.
The cochrans seem good but you can't get them easily in Australia.

Any insight would be wonderful.

cheers
Mike

There is a very active RB group in AUS. For more info. I would go to www.rebreatherworld.com. If you are transititioning to tech. the easiest , and certainly the most cost effective means of increasing capability is getting an RB.

As per VR3. It can be integrated into an RB. As per Cochran. They were given the name cock%$ng for a very good reason of which I agree. The Insp. and Evo. are nice units, but again since there is support in AUS. I would broaden my area of focus.

As per tables. I always cut hard tables onto Wetnotes of some type and often use a comp. as backup.

Cheers Mate. X


p.s. saw your last reply...an RB can be a pain to clean if you are diving 10 -30 m/ I often use OC just because I don;t like cleaning the things. However, if you are filming, or need extended time the RB is your tool.

 

[caveseeker7]

Welcome Mike.

Mr. X pretty much hit the nail on the head. There is a very active group of rebreather divers in Sidney, and you'll find a bunch of them on both Rebreather World and on Dive-Oz.

See if you can hook up with some of the divers in your area, plenty of them on plenty of different units. AP, Steam Machines, Jetsam, Innerspace, and the odd Ouroboros and MK series.

So, talking to the LDS as well as scouring various forums two options exist:
1. Kit up to a point where OC has enough redundancy and gas storage to allow dives to 80-100m.

2. Go for a rebreather - probably a CCR as that gives greatest benefits. I have quickly looked at the Inspiration and Evolution and both seem good and are popular.

First up, the shop you want to visit is the Troll Cave, Barry Hallet at Southern Cross Divers. He's the local AP dealer and supply point for rebreather divers. On the boards he appears as 'bazza'.

The topic of going tech first and then use a CCR or the other way around has been hotly debated in the past. The old school of thought is tech first, then CCR, probably because most early CCR buyers already were tech divers looking to get rid of some large tanks and expensive fills. CCRs were very expensive and most people able to afford them a bit more ... mature.

These days you get a new CCR for half of those prices, the Jetsams for less, and there are plenty of second units available. Going CCR first means you're racking up hours and experience on the unit before going deep, and saving yourself a bunch in gear and gas expenses.

Personally I don't think there is a right or wrong way, whatever you're comfortable with and can afford should work. As long as you're serious about and stay within your training and experience limits.

CCRs easily can go longer and deeper than you should when starting out and not being trained for either. Without proper training and skills that is a dangerous proposition. Then again, if you go OC tech first switching to CCR means you're starting over to quite some extend. That can make your ego your worst enemy if you've gotten accustomed to diving deep wrecks, as OC trimix experience doesn't apply 1:1 RB trimix
experience.

At either level a CCR can easily exceed the diver's capabilities, and if you look through accident reports you'll find plenty of divers going too far too soon.

This is an academic question at the moment but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Am currently looking at upgrading my electronics. This is what I am thinking of:
1. Get a SUUNTO Vyper to be used as a bottom timer (gauge mode only).

The Vyper seems a pretty popular choice as a gauge and computer.

2. At a later stage, get a decent computer with Tec capabilities and gas integration.

What kind of gas integration are you referring to?
A pressure sensor to monitor gas content (like SPG) or an oxygen sensor to monitor partial pressure of O2? The former is quite uncommon in technical OC diving due to the required gas switches. Afaik the only computer allowing gas pressure integration on up to three nitrox mixes is the Uwatec Smart Tech (or something like that).

For pO2 integration there are currently two manufacturers:
DeltaP (VR3) and Hydrospace (Explorer).
Both offer OC/CC, preset setpoint or O2 sensor, He capabilities, 10 mixes. Shearwater Research should be introducing the Shearwater deco computer soon, and it should have the same capabililies, more or less.

They use different algorithms, Explorer is RGBM, VR3 VPM (optional) and Shearwater GF.

Last but bot least, DeltaP showed a pressure transducer (contents gauge mode) at DEMA a while back. Don't know what happened to that, but worth asking them about if your heart is set on OC gas integration. The transducer uses the same cable connection as the pO2 sensor and has been in use in their Ouroboros CCR.

4. Get VPM-B software to cut tables for each deco dive, so you have manual backup.

Either VPM or RGBM, endless discussions about those, too.

Again, I recommend that you try and hook up with some local CCR divers and get their feedback on computers. Not just the units themselves, but customer service etc.

'Scubaroo' I think is the screen name of the guy who reps Hydrospace, Oxycheq etc in Oz.

 

[ianr33]

1. Kit up to a point where OC has enough redundancy and gas storage to allow dives to 80-100m. This would mean getting multiple cylinders,bailout,computers etc - the works. This seems to be a popular direction which for a moderate outlay also gives a great amount of diving flexibility.

Any insight would be wonderful.

cheers
Mike

I like your sense of humour ! Would love to know how to do 100m dives at a moderate expense

Your profile says you are fairly new to diving. If that is accurate I would suggest doing Advanced Nitrox/Deco proceedures. Get a set of doubles, stage bottle and a drysuit and then go do a bunch of mild deco dives to gain experience. The costs of getting into 100m dives quickly becomes enormous,either open circuit or CCR.

If you do eventually get a CCR you will still need the stage for bailout. Sell the doubles or break them up for stages.

 

[BubbleTrouble]

ohhh, all I meant about gas integration is on top of the normal PPO2 measurements it should also have tank pressure, breathing rate, time remaining till surface based on gas consumption.

While I fully advocate using the most powerful computer available, the brain, there is also an argument to use computers. I guess to my thinking is, when a computer works, and can do some of the complex calculations then it makes it for a better dive experience.
When it stops working then you go to manual mode as backup.

I like your sense of humour ! Would love to know how to do 100m dives at a moderate expense

Your profile says you are fairly new to diving. If that is accurate I would suggest doing Advanced Nitrox/Deco proceedures. Get a set of doubles, stage bottle and a drysuit and then go do a bunch of mild deco dives to gain experience. The costs of getting into 100m dives quickly becomes enormous,either open circuit or CCR.

Yeah, I'm known to thrown in the occasional funny on the side. Talking about funny: James Bond walks into a bar, sees a hot blonde sitting on one of the stools and thinks "ohh yeah, not bad", then sits down on a stool near by and starts studying his new state of the art dive watch.
The blonde measures him up and says, "is your date late?". James answers, "no, I'm just studying my new state of the art dive watch. It talks to me, you know, in alpha waves. It tells me what's going on.".
The blonde looks interested and asks, "what's it saying now?". To which James answers, "well it's saying that you're wearing no panties.". The blonde chuckles, skakes her head, "well, you see, your watch is wrong, because I am wearing my panties."
Bond looks a bit shocked, then looks at the watch and starts tapping at its screen. Then says, "well, I'll be damned, the thing is 10 minutes fast!".

back to diving...

Mr. X pretty much hit the nail on the head. There is a very active group of rebreather divers in Sidney, and you'll find a bunch of them on both Rebreather World and on Dive-Oz.

Cool I'll check it out. Thanks.

These days you get a new CCR for half of those prices, the Jetsams for less, and there are plenty of second units available. Going CCR first means you're racking up hours and experience on the unit before going deep, and saving yourself a bunch in gear and gas expenses.

Yes, I wanted to optimise much dive spending. Have recently switched jobs which has given me a new lease on dive gear so want to maximise my buying power but at the same time get gear that will do me for a long time. Second hand CCR seems like a good option for me, provided a well maintained unit can be found.
Of course the advantage I have over seasoned tec OC divers is that I haven't developed OC tec habits which would potentially hamper me on CCR equipment. So as caveseeker pointed out, it does make sense to get CCR, stay within limits and as training and experience progresses extend dive range. That appeals to me, as I always take care with how and where I dive. I've no problem spending the time in the shallows to get comfortable first. The main reason for getting CCR early is that you get all the gear you'll ever need early and gain experience on it rather than spending money on OC gear, learning how to dive tec on that, then retraining, re-kitting on CCR and learning to dive again - almost. This seems inefficient.

At least for now, one question has been solidly resolved. Getting the Vyper now, would easily do me as a simple computer in the interim while I decide on the CCR options. It will also do a great job later, with CCR as guage for backup purposes.

I really need to investigate the CCR issue more as I believe in making informed decisions. Does anyone have any view on the practical differences of the Inspiration vs the Evolution?

cheers
Mike

 

[caveseeker7]

I really need to investigate the CCR issue more as I believe in making informed decisions. Does anyone have any view on the practical differences of the Inspiration vs the Evolution?

Barry really is the guy to see, he surely has at least the Inspo in his shop, probably an Evo, too.

Simply put, the Evo is smaller than the the Inspo. 2 ltr tanks instead of 3 ltr, 2 hrs scrubber rating instead of 3 hrs., couple of kilos less weight, couple of cm shorter.
Hence easier to transport, supposedly less bulky UW, popular with smaller divers. Although some complain that getting into the unit is harder because it's so short.

The other difference is the availability of Classic electyronics on the Inspo, the Evo only comes with the Vision electronics. Most used units will have the Classic electronics as the upgrade is quite expensive. Plenty of people upgrading just get a new unit after seeling the old one without paying much extra.

Manuals for both Inspos and the Evo can be downloaded for free from AP's website.
They have the details of size/weight as well as the electronics.

 

[silent running]

Hello BubbleTrouble, I came to RBs much the way you are-no prior tech experience. I'm very glad I made the switch for the following reasons:
-Better and more frequent wildlife interactions.
-Far greater dive planning flexablity, both on the fly and in prior planning for specific dive objectives.
-Ultimate decompression diving tool for future dive objectives like deeper wrecks and caves.
-Safety factor of having much longer duration than similar sized OC gear.
-Breathing warm, moist gas in silence a much more pleasant dive experience.

I started out on SCR due to the lack of CCR options in 1998. You do not have this problem in 2006 as there are many CCRs to choose from. Listen, not only to the seductive, Siren warbble coming from the Troll Cave. There are epic songs of praise for each CCR. Listen to each of them until the words make sense or you fall asleep from boredom, which ever comes first.
Oh, and after you go out and get a constant PO2 computer, you will still need a backup, like tables and a bottom timer. The Suunto will make an excellent bottom timer in gage mode as it has a stopwatch for your deco stops. Good luck and Happy Homework. -Andy

 

[BubbleTrouble]

Cheers guys. All very very useful inputs. I am just sucking up all the info from rebreatherworld.com ... awesome site. Sounds like a trip to Troll Cave is required ...

Thanks heaps.
Mike