Observed an OW class yesterday

[HantsDiver]

This post makes two fallacies.

1. I compares a GUE Fundamentals class (which was designed to prepare experienced divers for the rigors of cave diving training) with an introductory OW class. That is like a math teacher strutting around the department office bragging about how much more math his calculus students know than the Algebra I students.

2. It assumes a high failure rate in education is a good thing. It isn't. In a well designed curriculum, students who have the required prerequisite skills and who put in the required time and effort in the amount of time designed for course completion should complete the course satisfactorily. If there is a high failure rate in a course with properly screened students who are giving the expected effort, then either the expectations for the course are not realistic given the planned time (you can't teach Calculus I in a month), or the quality of instruction was not up to the par.

The fallacy is that you or ANY instructor can produce divers (regularly) with great trim and buoyancy in an introductory open water class. I'm not sure if you know about fundamentals but it aims to do just that - except it's for more experienced divers. I can email you the standards if you want. They are not teaching gas switching - but simply doing basic skills (far less than padi) with good trim and buoyancy. Which respectfully is what you claimed you were doing with your students.

High failure rates are not assumed. They just either fail or provisional you if you can't do it properly. Both you and gov said you could get students to do these things easily... Which I'm going to again say is either wrong or you are the best instructors the world has ever known.

 

[HantsDiver]

I agree with this and was thinking the same thing when I read the post.

If you want to compare you should look at PADi who trains divers to do skills on their knees (for the most part even though I know some PADI instructors here teach neutral) vs. RAID where all the OW skills need to be done neutral and in good trim. That would be more apples to apples than a PADI vs GUE IMHO.

Why? I'm up for learning and will openly say if I'm wrong and apologize.

If you are doing something neutral with good trim - why does it matter which agency does it? I pointed out one agency as they demand it. None of the others do. I'm not even saying GUE produce the best instructors (although I think they generally do). I'm saying that if the one agency that demands it can't do it - how can others?

RAID do not demand all skills be done neutrally buoyant and in trim either. I know some of the senior guys at RAID. I like them. And I like the agency. But it's a total fabrication to say that.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

Why? I'm up for learning and will openly say if I'm wrong and apologize.

If you are doing something neutral with good trim - why does it matter which agency does it? I pointed out one agency as they demand it. None of the others do. I'm not even saying GUE produce the best instructors (although I think they generally do). I'm saying that if the one agency that demands it can't do it - how can others?

RAID do not demand all skills be done neutrally buoyant and in trim either. I know some of the senior guys at RAID. I like them. And I like the agency. But it's a total fabrication to say that.

My issue is as @boulderjohn stated...GUE Fundies is not meant for a new OW diver. That would be like comparing the training camp for a NFL player to the training camp for a Jr High or HS player...much different!!

As for RAID doing skills neutral, I would not say it is a "total fabrication" I did not manufacture or invent something and to say that implies I am lying. Rather I got that information from a RAID instructor. Maybe @RainPilot can clear this up and if I misunderstood, then I will admit I that.

 

[Lorenzoid]

My issue is as @boulderjohn stated...GUE Fundies is not meant for a new OW diver. That would be like comparing the training camp for a NFL player to the training camp for a Jr High or HS player...much different!!

Never mind Fundies. Keep in mind that GUE also offers Rec 1, which is their version of an OW course--for someone with no previous diving experience. Those who pass Rec 1 are "new OW divers" but have been taught everything taught in Fundies.

Carry on, people. This thread sure has taken a turn.

 

[boulderjohn]

with great trim and buoyancy

When I teach an OW class, my students dive in horizontal trim and with very good buoyancy control by the time they are done with the confined water sessions. They are more than prepared for the kind of diving expected of a recreational diver. I was with some students who were mistakenly believed to have more than 100 dives each when in fact they were on their first dive after getting their OW certification.

When I teach a tech class, I expect students to be able to hold decompression stops in horizontal trim for extended periods of time. By standards, they are required to do skills like valve shutdown drills in 45 seconds while holding a decompression stop. I do not expect my OW students to be able to do that.

 

[RainPilot]

Why? I'm up for learning and will openly say if I'm wrong and apologize.

If you are doing something neutral with good trim - why does it matter which agency does it? I pointed out one agency as they demand it. None of the others do. I'm not even saying GUE produce the best instructors (although I think they generally do). I'm saying that if the one agency that demands it can't do it - how can others?

RAID do not demand all skills be done neutrally buoyant and in trim either. I know some of the senior guys at RAID. I like them. And I like the agency. But it's a total fabrication to say that.

Strange. Just spent a weekend diving with the RAID Director of Training recreational and he is pretty insistent that all skills are to be conducted neutral. As he was when I did my IDC. As was @Wookie on his crossover.

And the 20 or so OW students I have certified in the last year have all been completely neutral and in trim by the end of their course. No exceptions and no real issues.

From everything I've heard about GUE Fundamentals it was originally designed as a gatekeeper course for screening those who want to go into tech and cave later. The low pass rate in that case is a feature not a bug.

 

[HantsDiver]

Strange. Just spent a weekend diving with the RAID Director of Training recreational and he is pretty insistent that all skills are to be conducted neutral. As he was when I did my IDC. As was @Wookie on his crossover.

And the 20 or so OW students I have certified in the last year have all been completely neutral and in trim by the end of their course. No exceptions and no real issues.

From everything I've heard about GUE Fundamentals it was originally designed as a gatekeeper course for screening those who want to go into tech and cave later. The low pass rate in that case is a feature not a bug.

Can you link me to the standards? I'll apologize if I'm wrong. But I spoke to Paul Toomer and he told me explicitly that wasn't the case.

 

[Joneill]

I disagree: Trim is only important WHEN you propelling yourself.

Trim is also useful on ascent and descent to help control the rate of either, no? A vertical diver will ascend and descend somewhat faster than a diver in horizontal trim (assuming all else is equal) due the increased surface area (and hence increased drag) the diver will then be presenting to the direction of travel, (up/down).

 

[The Chairman]

Not a single fundamentals instructor has 100% pass rate.

I don't have a 100% pass rate. So? Close, but not there. I've had my classes mistaken for a fundies class and even a cavern class. So? I'm not teaching either, not pretending to teach either and I don't make my classes inordinately hard or long. It's my opinion that we've heard the "100 dive mantra" for so long that we believe it with absolutely nothing to back that up. I teach differently than just about any other instructor I know. I cover vector physics before we even get in the water in a way that they understand how trim affects buoyancy. I'm not a genius but I do care and I want my students to have fun. That means they have to be in control and not frustrated.

 

[RainPilot]

Can you link me to the standards? I'll apologize if I'm wrong. But I spoke to Paul Toomer and he told me explicitly that wasn't the case.

I'm on the iPad travelling so no access to standards right this minute. Closest I have is this Learn to scuba dive | Get your scuba certification | Scuba diving lessons | Online scuba training | Learn to dive rebreathers | Scuba diving schools | Scuba vacations | Underwater photography | Diver training program there's a bit about buoyancy halfway down.

How recent was the conversation with Paul? He as an owner is as close to the horses mouth as it gets, if there's been a change post RSTC then I need to check. Won't change my standards but would be good to know.