Observed an OW class yesterday

[The Chairman]

I'm sorry... but the "we've all been there" argument does not hold a lot of weight for me.

I fully agree. If you cannot control your depth or have horrible trim, you should still be in confined water where you can't hurt yourself or bother others. It's like graduating high school and not being able to read or balance a check book. Does it happen? Sure. That doesn't make it a good thing. I fault the instructors and the instructors' trainers for not requiring buoyancy and trim before their students graduate from confined water. It doesn't take a 100 dives to master buoyancy: it takes a competent instructor and an OW class.

 

[HantsDiver]

I fully agree. If you cannot control your depth or have horrible trim, you should still be in confined water where you can't hurt yourself or bother others. It's like graduating high school and not being able to read or balance a check book. Does it happen? Sure. That doesn't make it a good thing. I fault the instructors and the instructors' trainers for not requiring buoyancy and trim before their students graduate from confined water. It doesn't take a 100 dives to master buoyancy: it takes a competent instructor and an OW class.

Why can you not hurt yourself in confined water? I could give examples of injuries and even fatalities from confined water. Broadly speaking I'd agree it was safer than open water - but we should give all bodies of water a level of respect.

Why does bad trim make someone unsafe? I have done deco stops both in trim and upside down for a laugh before. I wouldn't say this limit me to a swimming pool. I don't mean to be harsh as this is your site... But in 90% of the cases here (on your website) people are not in trim... Adventures - Dive With Elena Why are they in the open water?

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

I am not sure what all the backlash is towards @Marie13.

When I have less than 24 dives I hope I can critique and have all the answers about others divers as well as the OP. (Sarcasm)

You can have less than 24 dives and see equipment issues, dangling gear that is not stowed properly, loose tank bands, etc. It doesn't take 2000 dives to notice a mess or possible disaster.

I read her post and never once did I feel she had all the answers. She was posting about what she saw and wondering why an instructor would allow students to do that.


Do you like sports? Have you ever played professionally? If you have played but never as a pro how can you sit there and critique a baseball or football player?

You don't have all the answers and have much less practice (or training) as they do but you can tell when the QB throws off the wrong foot or pick out someone on the field that doesn't have their chinstrap buckled, etc.

Same thing in this case. I know what a well streamlined gear setup looks like as I was taught that and also learned here as I am guessing the OP did as well.

You don't have to be an expert or pro to pick out deficiencies. I heard a 5 year old boy yell at the TV because his favorite linebacker missed a tackle due to not keeping his head up. He ducked his head, taking his eyes off the RB and missed terribly. This kid has played one year of flag football and knows to keep your head up and your eyes on the target.

This "you only have less than 24 dives so you don't know poop" argument is elitist at best and is very far from the truth. When it comes to skills sure, new divers are less skilled (for the most part) than more experienced divers but to chime in to basically just say she doesn't know poo is mean and adds nothing to the conversation.

After all a message board is about meeting people with similar interests and the sharing of ideas and thoughts.

 

[Caveeagle]

Why can you not hurt yourself in confined water? I could give examples of injuries and even fatalities from confined water. Broadly speaking I'd agree it was safer than open water - but we should give all bodies of water a level of respect.

Lets see... No Current, Few environmental variables, known, shallower depth, less anxiety around 'unknowns', easier for an instructor to keep tabs on a student.....

Why does bad trim make someone unsafe? I have done deco stops both in trim and upside down for a laugh before. I wouldn't say this limit me to a swimming pool. I don't mean to be harsh as this is your site... But in 90% of the cases here (on your website) people are not in trim... Adventures - Dive With Elena Why are they in the open water?

Bad trim can lead to: Stress, improper propuslsion, elevated heart rates, ... as well as my pet peeve.. Dragging on or coming into contact with the bottom, stirring up silt. And yes, we can point to silt outs directly contributing to diver deaths.
ie: I think it was mid 90's in Manatee Springs (catfish hotel), where an OW student and instructor silted out catfish and drowned. Granted, they appeared to be well into the cavern zone and violated plenty other 'rules', but it was the zero-viz situation that caused two divers to drown less than 20 feet from a direct surface ascent.

 

[The Chairman]

Why can you not hurt yourself in confined water?

I've seen very, very few people get hurt in the pool. In fact, only a heart attack, in a very fit adult going for his DM. If it's "just" as dangerous, then why not throw people into the middle of the deep blue and teach them there?

Why does bad trim make someone unsafe?

This is where ignorance can hurt you. Out of control divers spend more time dealing with fear and frustration and less time paying attention to their environment, their gas and simply having fun. Until you get trim and buoyancy down, you're going to spend a lot of your dive in white knuckle mode. Why would you want that? Why would you not want to learn how to be in trim and in full control of your buoyancy during your OW class? Posing to take a picture? Hanging on deco? Trim is not that important. Swimming? Maintaining depth while swimming? Trim is critical. Sorry you don't feel that way.

 

[HantsDiver]

I've seen very, very few people get hurt in the pool. In fact, only a heart attack, in a very fit adult going for his DM. If it's "just" as dangerous, then why not throw people into the middle of the deep blue and teach them there?

When did I say it was "just" as dangerous? I actually said: "I'd agree it was safer than open water - but we should give all bodies of water a level of respect." Which I stand by. Certain skills should be practiced in a more controlled environment - I wouldn't say trim is one of them. I define trim as the position we hold when we are not propelling ourselves forwards and backward.

This is where ignorance can hurt you. Out of control divers spend more time dealing with fear and frustration and less time paying attention to their environment, their gas and simply having fun. Until you get trim and buoyancy down, you're going to spend a lot of your dive in white knuckle mode. Why would you want that? Why would you not want to learn how to be in trim and in full control of your buoyancy during your OW class? Posing to take a picture? Hanging on deco? Trim is not that important. Swimming? Maintaining depth while swimming? Trim is critical. Sorry you don't feel that way.

I'd personally love it if people learned that on their OW course. I'd also like them to do all skills neutral with good trim. Which is what I had to do when I did fundamentals. However it's totally unrealistic to expect that output standard from a recreation entry level OW course. Standards actually make it impossible due to having to blow bubbles on most rec courses with a reg out of your mouth.

 

[KeithG]

Maybe we need to be more clear what the word danglies means to each of us?

As a boat diver I have been present for multiple preventable accidents caused by divers catching improperly secured (or even unsecured) gear on immovable objects. Most common mistake is the unsecured console or an unsecured octo.

With beach diving they just drag in the sand. So maybe not a big deal. They can be a serious problem boat diving.

Worst accident ended up with a diver doing a face plant into the boat as her console caught on the dock as she boarded. That ended her week of diving. I have been present a few times when danglies got caught as people exited the boat to start their dive. Both giant stride and backroll. None with serious consequences, just scrapes and bruises.

 

[The Chairman]

I define trim as the position we hold when we are not propelling ourselves forwards and backward.

I disagree: Trim is only important WHEN you propelling yourself. The submarine doesn't really worry about trim unless it's moving. Why should we? Airplane pilots never adjust trim when they are on the tarmac. For a diver, your trim or attitude in the water is important if you want to maintain any semblance of neutral buoyancy. If the thrust is not parallel to the bottom, then you'll have to adjust your buoyancy in order to compensate and then adjust it again when you slow down or stop. If your legs are down, even a bit, then you'll have to release air from your BCD as you swim and then put it back when you stop. If your legs are pointed up a bit, then the opposite happens. Get the trim right to begin with and the rest becomes easy.

However it's totally unrealistic to expect that output standard from a recreation entry level OW course.

My students don't seem to have an issue with it, so calling it unrealistic is over the top. Get the trim right first, and it's as easy as pie.

 

[divad]

It's like graduating high school and not being able to read or balance a check book. .

And that's a bad thing?....ruh-roh

 

[The Chairman]

And that's a bad thing?....ruh-roh

Not for some, I guess!