Not everyone thinks cave diving is the pinnacle of SCUBA!

[DevonDiver]

At least with regards to U.S. law, your untrained legal analysis isn't much smarter than someone trying cave diving without training.

Well...I'm not from the US. I just thought you guys shot everyone...

I don't think he was going for analysis so much as analogy.

An accurate thought

If you see someone clearly unqualified in a cave, you assume they're attempting to commit suicide (because in reality they are ... whether or not they realize it) and you respond as you would to anyone attempting suicide ... which in a decent world would be to try to prevent them from succeeding ...

Yes, that's an analogy I was trying to make. It'd be an 'intervention'. Before Lecter gets the wrong idea....I don't know how US law dictates upon that..

Not kinda like that. The police are called, employees are strictly told not to physically confront anyone in fear of lawsuits

Ok, maybe Walmart was a bad analogy (I was trying to keep it in line with the earlier comment made).

How about substituting: "a bar or nightclub". Such businesses do permit employees to use physical force to remove undesireables, especially those who create a risk to themselves or others... i.e. bouncers.

Example:

Patron enters a bar and consumes alcohol to the point of inebriation.
Patron wishes to continue drinking.
Bar has policy 'no drunkenness', as it wishes to safeguard patron's health, its own liability and prevent obstruction to its business activities.
Bar Tender refuses patron further alcoholic beverages and instructs him to leave premises.
Patron refuses and continues to demand further alcohol.
Bar Tender calls Security, who then reiterate the bar policy to the customer and, again, instruct them to leave the premises.
Patron still refuses.
Security removes patron from premises using minimum force.

Analogy:

Diver enters site and goes for a dive.
Diver enters overhead environment, for which they are not trained.
Site has policy 'appropriate training and qualification', as it wishes to safeguard patron's health, its own liability and prevent obstruction to its business activities.
Site has communicated this policy to regular visitors and through associated cave agencies - requests vigilance/intervention to enforce policy.
Site has further communicated this policy by placing warning notices at the entrance to caves.
Observer refuses diver further entry into overhead environment and instructs them to leave the cave.
Diver refuses and continues trying to move further into the overhead environment.
Observer removes diver from the overhead using minimum force.

There's a difference between labeling your property as private property/ no trespassing and then taking enforcement into your own hands, I'm afraid. Not at all the greatest example of the owner of a cave frankly because assuming they knew about everyone entering their property/ getting permission granted (under the operating assumption that they tell others to wag the finger or enforce their rules while on it [wtf?]), they are then responsible for those who are on their grounds, tourism or not. If you're letting unqualified divers go knowingly, then you truly do open yourself up to lawsuits. This shouldn't fall on those enjoying the owners property to enforce every aspect of it.

The owner has ultimate right to dictate who does what, when and how on their property.
The owner can set conditions on entry.
The owner can enforce those conditions.
The owner can delegate enforcement of those conditions to others.

Another analogy: I go to Disney World. On a roller-coaster ride, I proceed to remove the retaining mechanism that holds me in my seat. I want to ride 'free'. Upon noticing my actions, the ride attendant (1) stops the ride and (2) asks me to get off and leave. I refuse in the belief that it is my right to ride how I want and take the risks that I feel are appropriate. The ride attendant calls security, who force me to leave the property.

The difference between cave diving and other premises, is that an observer in a cave will have the knowledge that the police cannot be called to attend the immediate scene in a sufficiently timely manner at to prevent harm from occurring. Consequently, there is a reasonable belief that if personal action is not taken, harm will occur.

As mentioned, I'm not familiar with US law (you can't just shoot them?). I do suspect that citizens have rights to use reasonable force to uphold the law. In the UK, you can enact a 'citizen's arrest', using minimum and reasonable force, in the absence of the police. In fact, as I understand it, the UK police have no greater provision of 'rights' beyond any private citizen. What they can do, anyone can do.. including removal from private premises or detention for the safety of the individual or others.

 

[koozemani]

You can only shoot them in Texas.

 

[261311]

I'm from Canada so I'm just as unfamiliar with specific state-by-state laws. I still think it odd that you'd dive any site where the owner expected you to enact some sort of self-policing, physical law so that they don't get sued rather than them taking responsibility for their own property through regulating who can use it through the correct channels of property ownership. Notice how all examples you presented, everyone is employed by the owner? How would that work anyways? Everyone entering a cave on my property wear a green ribbon on their thigh? Anyone who isn't wearing one, drag out by their finstraps and have arrested for trespassing? $50 reward? Honestly. May just be I can't wrap my head around the concept of how that would work politically enforcing someones land over observing safety concerns and acting upon those instead. A secondary example maybe? I really think it takes precedence that safety is the concern here over the what, when and how portions.

Besides, being Canadian I'd wave to the diver, apologize for the grave disturbance and keep on going

Personally speaking I don't think people who take most courses (through any agency) are given the appropriate scare needed to keep the stupid from flowing into dangerous situations. All warnings seem to dictate that you "may face serious injury or possibly death". The same thing really occurs (through similar wording without given the proper respect and thought to the task) walking down the street on a sunny afternoon. People don't respect things that may harm them, or may kill them. They respect things that will kill them. For some reason the people we're all talking about making these mistakes in cave diving (frankly, the same apt for any sort of serious errors or lapses in judgement in diving) don't consider drowning to be a likely risk because they're being fed air through a tube. They never consider "what else might happen" because they have a pony bottle or whichever else that makes them feel safe. Unfortunately the extra training is needed in case you or another diver is the 1 in 1000000 statistic, which seems to be the largest head scratching aspect to diving; the fact people don't think it can't be them or someone they dive with is just preposterous.

 

[Nemrod]

Okay this has been building with me for a while and I really wanted to voice my concern about this issue because myself and several newer divers that I know have been very annoyed by what I will refer to as the "cave diver attitude".

A bit of background- I am a new dive master that lives in the heart of cave country. I do springs and caverns mostly because that is all that is easily accessible to me. This means that I am frequently running into cave divers both on the surface and below and in the MANY cave dive shops around here.

Often times we will start talking and time after time they ask me if I am working towards a cave certification and when I say "No, I am not interested in cave diving" it becomes their mission to convert me. You would think they were Jehova's witnesses with how they hound me about cave diving. "You will be interested," or "you just don't know what you're missing," or "if you take my intro class I will change your mind," one person even said "you're not a real diver until you've seen a cave," and it just keeps coming.
These are the nice cave divers. I can live with this but you guys should really know that it is annoying. I have seen caverns and a cave is just a lot more homogenous limestone similar to the cavern with a higher risk- no thanks.

The not so nice ones are snooty to the extreme. I stopped at a cave dive shop that was nearby an OW spring that I was diving and had some rented aluminum 80's that I wanted filled. Without being in the shop for more than 30 seconds the lady working there says with her nose held high and referring to our AL 80's, "oh- we are a cave dive shop so there is nothing here for you." That's verbatim. Okay- that's fine. My buddy was going to look at wetsuits (which they had) and I was looking for a decent light (again which they had) and we were going to purchase some tank fills but they obviously did not want our money even though we were the ONLY ONES IN THE SHOP. The shop was the Dive Outpost about a mile east of Peacock Springs on 180th.e

The worst kind is the over-zealous cavers. I get that you do not want to have inexperienced people to die in caves but your responsibility for this stops at the water. During my conversations with cavers I have heard of 3 separate times a caver "dragged" or "pushed" (terms used by the caver) an inexperienced diver out of a cave/ cavern mouth. Once while I was entering a cavern (which I was certified to do) a caver mistook me for an OW diver and tried to block the entrance. Had I not had a slate to communicate with him and he tried to drag me out of a cavern I would consider it kidnapping and press charges as hard as I could. I get the good intentions but worry about yourself and your buddy when you are underwater- not me.

This is not meant to offend cavers but maybe to point this out to them.

My point is that this kind of attitude and behavior is driving people away from the sport. Non-cave/ tech divers should not be looked down upon. I know that I am not the only one that feels this way but has anyone in this forum noticed it?

Just dive and have fun and do not worry about the elitism. For some reason the sport of scuba attracts this behavior and then it subdivides itself. It irritates me too. But, the surest way to find acceptance is to take your new found sport serious and seek to improve your capability. A thousand dives done in the same quarry or the same place the same way only make you as a diver, really good at that one thing. Diversity will make you a better and more capable diver and a better buddy diver and some do find that in a cave. She who rules over my life has forbidden me from further pursuit of cave exploration and I cannot say that I miss it one bit.

Cave and in general "overhead" diving teaches discipline and planning, not a bad thing if you can get around the puffery.

N

 

[Paladin]

I don't know how it is in Florida, but here in West Virginia, you are not allowed to lay hands on anyone, without their consent, unless they attack you first. I worked as an armed security officer for almost ten years back in the 90s and that was part of our training. We were not permitted to take physical action unless we, or someone we were hired to protect, were in immediate danger. If your cave scenario were to happen here and a diver was physically dragged out of a cave by well meaning cave divers, the cave divers could be charged with assault and battery and fined/jailed, regardless of the ownership of the cave. Only law enforcement personnel are permitted to perform such actions. Florida's laws probably aren't much different.

The fact that there are no laws (AFAIK) prohibiting untrained divers from going into caves precludes physical action even by law enforcement unless requested by the land owner or other responsible person. At Ginnie Springs, for example, the untrained cave explorer is legally guilty of nothing more than trespassing (for violating the rules) and the only person who can legally do anything about his actions is the land owner, staff and any law enforcement officer that the owner authorizes to act on his behalf. Just because one is cave trained does not give him the legal right to physically accost another diver for any reason. The cave diver is nothing more than another paying guest on private property and, regardless of his training, has no legal authority over the property or any of the other guests.

So what if Ginnie Springs' owner have certain rules that they want to have obeyed? The only people who can do anything about infractions and their perpetrators are the owners and staff of Ginnie. Not the other guests. Period. All the trained cave diver can legally do is run over to the office and report the offender. If he physically accosts the other diver, he can be charged with assault and battery.

Not that I'm ever going to try to sneak into the Devil's Eye system, but if, let's say, I went into the cavern area of the Eye with a lighted video camera merely to video the interior of the cavern and get a good shot of the Reaper and someone suddenly came up to me and grabbed me, the first thing that would happen would be that he would be eating his mask. I do not take kindly to someone laying hands on me without my permission. Shortly after that, his arse would be charged with assault and intent to commit bodily harm and he would be on his way to jail. The fact that we were underwater and in a cave would not matter. The attacker's motives would not matter. All that would matter would be the fact that he physically assaulted me, unprovoked, and caused me to fear for my life.

Afterwards, regardless of whether or not the charges stuck (and they probably would because they would be based on assault and battery laws and not denial of entry), would come the civil suit on any and all possible grounds that my lawyer could dream up and that would keep my attacker in court for as long as humanly possible.

Now, if said cave diver should come up to me and show me a slate with a message displaying his concern and then give me a chance to answer back, on my slate, as to my intentions, then the scenario would be quite different. As soon as I had accomplished my little mission, I would quietly leave. Heck, he would even be welcome to hang around and star in my movie. No fuss no muss. But if he just suddenly tried to grab me, I would have no choice but to consider myself as being under attack and respond accordingly.

Is the untrained diver being stupid for going into the cave, beyond the cavern zone? You bet yer sweet bippy he is! But the fact remains that no one has any legal authority to stop him except the owner of the cave. The posted rules at Ginnie Springs are there to protect Ginnie's owner from lawsuits and provide grounds for having undesirables evicted when necessary. They do not convey any authority upon any of the paying guests to act on the owner's behalf, regardless of certification level.

I understand the safety concerns of you cave divers, I honestly do. I almost died thirty-five years ago because I was young and stupid and thought I could do anything. Including cave diving using minimal gear. But your concern, as legitimate as it is, does not convey any sort of legal authority.

I'm climbing down from my soap box now.

 

[Aquabot]

It is,... until their decision becomes a fatality & shuts down a dive site, due to nervous landowners who do not want a lawsuit. Then affects more than just those divers & their loved ones.

And I understand this, but this still gives NO ONE the right to place their hands on someone else. If they were in an immediate danger then I would say otherwise but again some going into a cave untrained doesn't meant that. It just means they are unlikely to return from said venture. But a effort should be made but bot thru force....again in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[PfcAJ]

so uhh... you mean immediate danger?

 

[fnfalman]

fnfalman, it sounds as though you haven't read many of the threads about cave diving deaths.

In addition to the horrendous pain it causes families, and the risk a death poses to the recovery divers who retrieve the bodies, a cave diving fatality poses a risk for ALL of us who like to dive in caves: Landowners, whether private or State, do not like people dying on their property.

Pains to their family. Not to you and yours. The site owners are welcome to come up with rules and policies and enforce them. Unless you're a land owner, then leave me alone. I'm not there under your grace.

If it happens often enough, it's easy to make the decision that the income or other benefit gained from permitting cave diving is heavily outweighed by the risk of lawsuits and financial loss from deaths. Then access to the caves for diving is lost.

Them's the breaks. Diving is dangerous.

We are pretty merciless to our own (trained cave divers) who make mistakes that cause accidents.

You can act however you want among yourselves. If you impose yourself upon strangers, they may take offense, regardless of whether or not you meant well.

If I saw people who were clearly OW divers (the snorkels are a dead giveaway) heading into cavern/cave, I would escort them out.

And what if they refuse to be escorted out? Are you going to manhandle them? If you do, then don't be surprised if they retaliate.

It's very simple. You do what you do and let others do what they do. They're the ones that pay the ultimate prices. At most you would be inconvenienced.

Like I said, if strangers were to come up to me and forcibly manhandle me, I have a 6" pig sticker that I can introduce them to.

---------- Post added February 23rd, 2013 at 12:15 AM ----------

The problem is when untrained,selfish, poorly skilled people enter caves and die it's not like a saltwater wreck where the fish and crabs will clean them up in short order. Trained cave divera have to risk their lives to pull them out. During that time they have to close the cave, start an investigation, deal with the authorities, etc. All because of one or more selfish individuals.

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Why do you have to risk your life to do SAR on a dead diver? Do you belong to the SAR team? if you don't then why are you doing things you have no business doing?

If you belong to the SAR team, then that's what you get paid or volunteered to do. If you don't like recovering bodies, then don't get on the SAR team.

It's like the cops or medical people don't like cleaning up traffic accident messes - nobody forces you to be a cop or a medic.

 

[PfcAJ]

This is just downright laughable. You're going to stab someone who takes you out of a cave. I'm sure that will go over real well.

People moan and whine about needing to police ourselfs, diving will be regulated by the govt, nanny state, blah blah blah, then moan and whine when people do police themselves.

 

[fnfalman]

Well...I'm not from the US. I just thought you guys shot everyone...

Sometimes we hang'em high first and then shoot them after they're dead.

The owner has ultimate right to dictate who does what, when and how on their property.
The owner can set conditions on entry.
The owner can enforce those conditions.
The owner can delegate enforcement of those conditions to others.

Agreed.

Though who are these "others" that got delegated authorities from the site owner? Is there a list that said "so & so" is an authorized observer and enforcer? Is there a list that said something to the effect that "all certified cave divers are automatically designated observers and enforcers?"

If it's the latter then I'd be definitely interested in seeing the liability insurance since that the owner can just up and designate anybody to act as security/observer/enforcer without that person's agreement.

To take your analogy of bars and nightclub scenes, the securities are employed by the bar owner or subcontracted their services to the bar owner. Do these cave divers do the same thing? Are they employed as securities by the dive site owners or subcontracted their services to the site owners?

---------- Post added February 23rd, 2013 at 01:26 AM ----------

This is just downright laughable. You're going to stab someone who takes you out of a cave. I'm sure that will go over real well.

You lay a hand on me unwanted underwater and I simply take it as a threat. I don't know you. I don't know what you intend to do to me when you start to drag me around. Maybe you're trying to kill me. I simply practice self-defense.

People moan and whine about needing to police ourselfs, diving will be regulated by the govt, nanny state, blah blah blah, then moan and whine when people do police themselves.

Yeah, police yourself and I'll police myself.