Not everyone thinks cave diving is the pinnacle of SCUBA!

[lowviz]

...//...Or is my premise wrong that cave diving and wreck diving are analogous?

Pretty much the same except for fouls. In one game the boat is penalized, in the other, the site is penalized.

 

[Dsix36]

No matter what kind of diver I am or what kind of training I have, I know that other divers preferences are not the same as mine.

I know that there is no reason to "talk" someone into being a cave diver or tech diver or DIR diver or etc. etc. etc. Now if someone wants to know my thoughts or why I do it, that is another issue.

Just go diving and enjoy yourself. This is for recreation and fun right???

 

[DaleC]

I watched it, they have both good and in my opinion bad points...

Wow. I was just pointing out that someone whom one might think would be an advocate was pretty straight forward in his belief that cave/tech need not be the defacto goal of every diver.

 

[DevonDiver]

You are not a police officer and have no right to detain anyone anywhere. If you grabbed me while scuba diving and tried to swim off with me, I would treat the situation exactly as if it were occurring in a walmart parking lot and I would defend myself against a deadly threat.

1. Replace 'walmart' with 'center lane of a busy freeway at rush hour'...

I'm being Devil's Advocate here... removing an untrained individual from cave might be seen as an 'emergency intervention'. The individual has allowed themselves to enter a dangerous location, where risk to their life/safety is tangible and harm may occur to them. Like if you tackle someone and pull them away from the edge of a suspension bridge..

Diving beyond your qualifications, especially in an overhead environment, is categorically expressed by the scuba training agencies as an 'unsafe diving practice'. Physical intervention to prevent an individual placing themselves in risk may be supported by law.

2. Replace 'walmart' with 'the porch of my house'...

In addition, there may be regulations/legislation/ownership applicable at the diving site. This could be interpreted as the intervening diver is merely acting in accordance with the private owners' or authorities wishes. If the site was privately owned, then I assume all rights and laws applicable to property ownership would be applicable... including the right to use force to remove someone. Kinda like an employee at Walmart using physical force to remove an undesirable from their parking lot...

Use force to resist in either of those circumstances, and you might be on the wrong side of the law.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

1. Replace 'walmart' with 'center lane of a busy freeway at rush hour'...

I'm being Devil's Advocate here... removing an untrained individual from cave might be seen as an 'emergency intervention'. The individual has allowed themselves to enter a dangerous location, where risk to their life/safety is tangible and harm may occur to them. Like if you tackle someone and pull them away from the edge of a suspension bridge..

Diving beyond your qualifications, especially in an overhead environment, is categorically expressed by the scuba training agencies as an 'unsafe diving practice'. Physical intervention to prevent an individual placing themselves in risk may be supported by law.

2. Replace 'walmart' with 'the porch of my house'...

In addition, there may be regulations/legislation/ownership applicable at the diving site. This could be interpreted as the intervening diver is merely acting in accordance with the private owners' or authorities wishes. If the site was privately owned, then I assume all rights and laws applicable to property ownership would be applicable... including the right to use force to remove someone. Kinda like an employee at Walmart using physical force to remove an undesirable from their parking lot...

Use force to resist in either of those circumstances, and you might be on the wrong side of the law.

At least with regards to U.S. law, your untrained legal analysis isn't much smarter than someone trying cave diving without training.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

At least with regards to U.S. law, your untrained legal analysis isn't much smarter than someone trying cave diving without training.

I don't think he was going for analysis so much as analogy.

Overhead diving isn't at all like OW diving. The rules are different. The mentality is different. And I think that's where the disconnect comes from.

If you see someone clearly unqualified doing a recreational OW dive (something we all see way too often), you might signal to ask them if they're OK. If they signal OK back, you assume they're merely incompetent and swim away.

If you see someone clearly unqualified in a cave, you assume they're attempting to commit suicide (because in reality they are ... whether or not they realize it) and you respond as you would to anyone attempting suicide ... which in a decent world would be to try to prevent them from succeeding ...

.. Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[261311]

Kinda like an employee at Walmart using physical force to remove an undesirable from their parking lot...

Not kinda like that. The police are called, employees are strictly told not to physically confront anyone in fear of lawsuits. There's a difference between labeling your property as private property/ no trespassing and then taking enforcement into your own hands, I'm afraid. Not at all the greatest example of the owner of a cave frankly because assuming they knew about everyone entering their property/ getting permission granted (under the operating assumption that they tell others to wag the finger or enforce their rules while on it [wtf?]), they are then responsible for those who are on their grounds, tourism or not. If you're letting unqualified divers go knowingly, then you truly do open yourself up to lawsuits. This shouldn't fall on those enjoying the owners property to enforce every aspect of it.

 

[PfcAJ]

Iirc, a cave instructor yoinked an OW diver (maybe instructor) out of a cave a few years ago in Fl. The guy attempted to press charges, but they were ultimately dismissed. The judge told the OW diver that he was lucky to be alive and nothing happened to the cave instructor.

 

[Superlyte27]

You are not a police officer and have no right to detain anyone anywhere. If you grabbed me while scuba diving and tried to swim off with me, I would treat the situation exactly as if it were occurring in a walmart parking lot and I would defend myself against a deadly threat.

I assume that reaction going into the situation. And I'm okay with it.
Stay out of the caves untrained and you won't have to worry about it.

 

[ffdiver]

It is very evident that you have an ax to grind with PADI as you jump on this whenever you have the chance.

As has been stated on these forums so many times, it really is all about the instructor, regardless of the organization.

After 54 dives, I figured it was time to do the AOW and I completed it this past weekend with the Course Director of my LDS. On board we had three other AOW students, 2 tech divers and a guy doing dry suit.

The tech divers plans were running lines and practicing drills. The dry suit diver just hung around and practiced his buoyancy with the suit while the four of us AOW students did our 5 dives. Out of the 4 of us, two of us were prepared. We had done all the reading, completed the knowledge reviews and were ready from the get go to do the dives. The same could not be said for the other two divers. They came with their manuals, but nothing filled out. I do not know if they did the reading or not, but since they didn't fill out the reviews, they couldn't in my mind have been taking it very seriously and their diving skills or lack of skills, was very obvious.

In the end, myself and the other guy who did the work passed the class with ease. But, the other two did not. They failed that PADI class. So to say that you can't fail a PADI class and divers are just moved along is absolutely not true at my LDS. Even in my Open Water class with a different instructor from the same LDS, there was one student who did not pass.

I do understand that everyones experience with this is different and I have no doubt that there are lousy instructors out there. I have heard that PADI is 3 times as large as all the other agencies combined so naturally there are going to be more bad instructors from PADI. But there are also a lot of good instructors too. The diver themselves has the responsibility to make sure they get themselves with the best instructor for their needs. That numbers game is exactly why there are so many different viruses created for Windows OS, because there is such a larger install base than anything else.

Congrats on AOW but you were only supposed to do three training dives in a day. Meaning your course should have been at least 2 days long.