Not everyone thinks cave diving is the pinnacle of SCUBA!

[RJP]

I predominantly dive wrecks. I understand that they're not for everyone (although I don't understand why...)

Shhhh... it's hard enough to get a spot on a boat going to a decent site as it is. We don't need MORE people clamoring for those spots! Everyone should stay away.

"These are not the dives you're looking for... move along."

 

[261311]

Watch the first 10 minutes of DIR 3 on you tube. See what George says at 3:05 and again at 4:20
[video=youtube;TD4K0SzZijI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD4K0SzZijI[/video]

I watched it, they have both good and in my opinion bad points. I also have a larger opinion on what DIR diving means to me, being a novice.

The good being as follows
-Self reliance is life
-Teams are important and you should be able to assist in any issue safely and competently
-Buying gear for function over flash just makes sense
-You should train a system that allows you to frequently use and build on the same skills and equipment, no matter what you dive

The bad being (I feel)
-There is imminent danger you face if you start to confuse baseline variation or tools and replace them with gimmicks
To say comfort and safety go hand in hand and force someone to not use something they're comfortable or familiar with is counter-intuitive if it doesn't jeopardize safety. Bottom line being you and your buddy, assuming you're being honest and true team divers should be familiar with each others rigs and their functions for emergencies, doesn't matter what you wear (though less is more here, I understand). The honesty should also come from an objective ability to tell your buddy that what they're bringing is inappropriate and them being able to judge through your reasoning the importance of your buddies preference. The other side being, it doesn't matter what gear you want to buy, if your BCD has a strobe light and a hot dog maker built in, you should be pre-checking for positive history/ reviews through other customers and quality. The extra features should also not interfere with the safety or function of the device either.
-DIR divers sound like they are relatively one of the more caring groups of divers out there, frankly speaking- anyone trying to save lives fits this category. Their focus in the end is safe diving and enjoying the sport. However, as with the philosophy a few (not all) also seem to obnoxiously advocate the agency or the principles hence why DIR was changed to GUE if I understand right, because people would frequently call on others for "doing it wrong" which honestly, if you're all having fun and getting back to the surface safely not putting each other in danger, that's what it's about. Nothing "wrong" there. The only issue I have here, as in the video is "tact" on how the opinions are presented.

I think my true issue with the DIR philosophy vs. other divers fight (both parties included in this) is no one wants to seem to recognize the others points. Everyone always has a larger boot to shove up the others backside in the interest of preference or safety or whatever topic you want to argue under. It seems few sit on the fence and honestly say that DIR principles aren't the worst, as neither are their people and even if that style of diving isn't for them they still take positives from it that will encourage their own safe diving. Just reminds me of the childish windows vs mac debates that plagues the tech industries. I've met a few good divers (there's tons but I'm not gonna PM all of you ) here who dive under GUE or other and all they want to do is share their positive safe experiences in the hope that it will rub off on others, I've also seen people on both sides who angrily fight for whatever cause they believe in because it works for them as well.

Sorry for the thread jack, back on topic-
As far as cave diving goes it can be an incredibly risky thing so I can understand trying to prevent death, I must admit if what the shop owner said was verbatim without any information given it is a bit insulting, but I side with others here that for every responsible diver she receives, she probably gets a much higher percentage of idiots who she's walling off from Darwins reach. I don't think anyone wants to dive for cadavers, even if it's their job. A different tact may be needed, and maybe a test to evaluate experience or intentions for refills objectively rather than just blocking off people who are scoping out the area for other activities rather than its popular reason. Honestly speaking, cert cards should be enough and a bit of honesty on the divers part, but people just aren't that trustworthy. As far as others telling you to cave dive, just say it's not in your interests, that should be enough. Unless you're talking to seagulls who will sit on your shoulder and squawk I don't think you need to go into in-depth reasons as to why. If someone can't respect that it's not in your interest and out of your comfort level, then don't dive with them and ignore them. Pretty simple if you ask me. I can see the passion of trying to get others interested in training and the act though because anything I become interested in I would love others to join me in, so if it's fun to me- maybe it would be worth someone else's time. Mind you I'm not pushy but the offer is always extended.

 

[tstormdiver]

Heck, did you ever run into somebody who hadn't thought about diving, and try to tell them they'd love it if they tried it? All of us who find something marvelous and exciting tend to try to pass that along to others. It just so happens that those of us who find the caves fascinating and irresistible occasionally have trouble understanding why somebody else wouldn't, if they would just give it a try . . . it's human nature.

Snootiness is human nature too, but I agree that it isn't very attractive. On the other hand, cave country is cave country, and they don't see many other sorts of divers.

Excellent analogy! I will be the first to say it is not for everyone. That doesn't mean I don't like to talk about it. I don't try to "covert" someone, unless there is some interest shown.

In fact, I have seen a few that really aren't suited for cave diving, even though they may want to (wrong mind sets). One wants to do it for bravado & bragging rights,... The other I can't quite figure out. He wants to do it, but on one of his Intro course dives, he panicked badly & spit out his regulator, during a simple air sharing drill. Once the instructor got things under control, the student shut down & the instructor had to physically swim him out. Once out the student told the instructor, " I knew you wouldn't let me die & would get me out"... To which the instructor replied, "I'm going to save your life again,.. Go home, you are done.". I later found out that the student had confided in his co- student/ buddy that he was claustrophobic. Yet,... the student keeps calling the instructor wondering when he can go back down to finish up, thinking it is a skills problem, not a mental one. His skills aren't really that bad, but the student defeats himself before even starting a dive. Doesn't make sense to me....

 

[JamesK]

OK, so as a Cave Diver, what should I say when I walk in to an predominantly OW shop and ask for something that is deemed "techie" and I get the attitude from them? The attitude from their DM's that because I am not a DM that I can not possibly be a good safe diver? The attitude I get when I am doing an OW dive and the boat DM gives me an attitude because I have different gear and my "octo" is not where he thinks it should be?

What I am getting at is that your same post could be directed straight back at you! "Why do DM's always feel they are the pinnacle of diving?"

Basically, butt cheese eating troglodytes exist in every form of diving, every sport, and every walk of life. I regularly chat up any diver is see at a spring. We discuss what we like about the dives we are each doing. I answer questions about what the wet rocks look like. And I offer guidance when asked.

I have only had to have a stern discussion a couple times. The most recent was a group of OW folks in the cavern of Devils Eye. While on deco in the cavern I was watching them. Two were sitting on a nice little ledge in the cavern. They had their fins hanging down in the cavern. The problem their fins kept getting tangled in someones guideline. I had to unwrap their fins once without them even realizing what they were doing. When I was finished at that stop I came out to finalize my deco and one of their groups landed right on my head. When all of us got to the surface I talked to them. The one apologized for landing on my head. I laughed it off. I explained about the guidelines and how important they were to us and getting tangled in it could be very dangerous for not only themselves, but the cave diver in the cave. I was nice about it. They apologized and thanked me.

 

[SWAMPY459]

I would rather mistakenly try to save your life, than to ignore you, assuming you had everything under control and find out you perished.

You are not a police officer and have no right to detain anyone anywhere. If you grabbed me while scuba diving and tried to swim off with me, I would treat the situation exactly as if it were occurring in a walmart parking lot and I would defend myself against a deadly threat.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Blocking a cave entrance is one thing, if somewhat debatable. But potentially sharing the water with someone who advocates physically acosting another diver is enough to make one consider adding an HK P11 to one's harness. Diving is dangerous enough without the need to worry about underwater fights.

 

[Aquabot]

I'm not cave certified nor do I claim to be, but I think that a hand gesture of some sort (not the middle finger lol) would suffice. If suspected to be only OW or non cave just give the "overhead" sign followed up by the one finger "no" wave would suffice. Off they choose to proceed that's on them IMHO although I do see both sides.


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[tstormdiver]

If they choose to proceed that's on them IMHO although I do see both sides.
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It is,... until their decision becomes a fatality & shuts down a dive site, due to nervous landowners who do not want a lawsuit. Then affects more than just those divers & their loved ones.

 

[TreyR]

I don't believe for a moment that Cathy made those comments to the OP unless there is more to the story than we know (which is where I'd put my money). The dive shops in Cave Country are the best I've ever dealt with. There are ******* cave divers just like there are ******* OW divers. This thread serves no purpose but to pit us against them. This was a complete troll.

Since we're going down this road anyhow I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. You can't possibly know what it is you don't know. Without proper training you can't possibly know the risks involved and how to mitigate those risks. Anyone diving in the overhead without the training is a complete idiot. Regardless of what people imply there are not any people duking it out at the dive sites. People take it personal when they feel as if someone else's foolish behavior could affect what they love doing. Yes there are no scuba police, there are no government regulations but this is only because the scuba community does such a good job at self policing. Let's keep it that way.....

Cave diving isn't for everybody and that's fine. If you don't care for it don't do it. I don't look down on people who are happy with single tank warm water diving. Tech diving is a lot of work and that takes the fun out of it for some folks, I get it. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with cave divers. Maybe their attitude wasn't because of the fact you're an OW diver maybe it was because you were acting like an ass?

 

[261311]

Half the problem is all of you seem to be treating the underwater world with the same rules you treat each other with above ground thinking. If someone grabs you under water (whether or not they should be) your instinct should ask you to find out. Your first reaction shouldn't be to pull your SAFETY knife out and stab someone to death. I may be mistaken but I've been missing the news report on underwater muggings and hold-ups. If someone puts their own life on the line to physically get your attention it could probably assumed that you're in immediate danger.

What should be discussed IMO is the after discussion of what they do with your warning and the level of danger they face to physically pull them out. Granted cave diving is dangerous to those who don't know better, it still doesn't implicitly give you the right to haul any diver you wish out of the water based on an uneducated judgement call. This could be something someone is trained to do and just because they have different gear doesn't mean they intend to go where you do, have extensive experience in the locale and training/ skills with their gear. No one should have to carry a cert card at depth strapped to their arm to prevent assault.